Moa it is.

[OU812]

Well I tried adjusting powder and made seating depth changes but MOA is what I get with 140 accubonds and 66.0 of Retumbo, and I'm OK with that. To be honest I was hoping to see a slightly smaller group but it is what it is. It's now sighted in for 3 inches high at 100, black dots above target were impact heights I desired.

I will say this Meopta scope tracks like a champ. Every adjustment I made from upper left to upper right and finally bottom left all moved just as adjusted for.

The upper left target #2 opened my group, slightly over MOA
Upper right, I don't know what in the heck I did but I pushed #3 way out there.
Bottom left #1 opened the group up from #2 and 3, slightly under MOA

All 3 targets were 66.0 of Retumbo.

 

[DrMike]

Twenty years ago we were bragging about MOA. That is still pretty good for a hunting load.

 

[JD338]

Bill,

You are almost there.

JD338

 

[OU812]

Twenty years ago we were bragging about MOA. That is still pretty good for a hunting load.

MOA has always worked well for me even out at longer ranges. My feelings would not be hurt if the group shrunk down a little but I'm not going to shoot the barrel out trying to shave another 1/2 inch less in group size.

I plan on shooting from 400-600 yards before to long and see how it really does. If it does well I will keep that load for hunting this year but I do intend on trying some other powders, RL-25, RL-33, N570 and Magnum.

 

[OU812]

Bill,

You are almost there.

JD338

I may already be there if it shoots well from 400-600 yards. If it does well in those ranges the pressure is off for finding a good hunting load.

I will try other powders out of curiosity though. :mrgreen:

 

[SJB358]

Looks good to me Bill. I'd wonder if you couldn't go shorter to bring them in some more but if you've already done that, well, your in great shape. I'd not discount the barrel shooting better as you get more rounds threw it either. I said it before but all of mine took some shooting to really settle down and shoot well. If that's what you've got right now there isn't an elk in Oregon that's going to get missed because of the load.

Can't wait to see what it does out at longer ranges. The 140's may surprise you.

What's your current OAL?

 

[OU812]

Looks good to me Bill. I'd wonder if you couldn't go shorter to bring them in some more but if you've already done that, well, your in great shape. I'd not discount the barrel shooting better as you get more rounds threw it either. I said it before but all of mine took some shooting to really settle down and shoot well. If that's what you've got right now there isn't an elk in Oregon that's going to get missed because of the load.

Can't wait to see what it does out at longer ranges. The 140's may surprise you.

What's your current OAL?

Scotty I started with a COL of 2.664 from base to ogive and shot an MOA equilateral triangle so I seated them out by .005 and found 2.669 shot the best of the bunch but now I get 2 in 1 out, but not always the 3rd shot.

I could try increasing/decreasing powder 1/10th from the 66.0 and see what happens. Retumbo may not be the ticket for a smaller group.

Hell maybe it's me and not the load but so far MOA is the best with 66.0 grains. 64.5 did shooting tighter so maybe I'll revisit that load as well and it was going 3053 ave.

This rifle is bone stock, so maybe bedding would not hurt. I don't weigh my bullets or brass so maybe there in lays the cause.

 

[SJB358]

I tried pretty hard with Retumbo and did okay with it, it just didn't perk as well as RL25 did for me. I think you really are good though. If it shoots well at distance I wouldn't give a darn what my 100 yard groups look like. The 264 really seems to shine out long. Not sure if it is a stabilization thing or what, but mine shoots about as well at 300 yards as it does at 100 most of the time, if I am on my game.

 

[Darkhorse]

What power scope are you using to shoot these groups? It's tough to shoot really tiny groups with a 10X and under, simply because you can't see that well.

When I was wringing out my Browning Abolt in .300 Win. some years ago, I kept detailed records and was surprised that at almost exactly the 100 round mark, the groups suddenly tight'nd up measureably.

 

[OU812]

Well like I said Retumbo may not be the ticket for best accuracy in this rifle. I've shot 30 something bullets so far and usually if best accuracy is to come around with a powder I should have found it by now, from past experience.

I do have to say the RL powders have always in the past given great accuracy and speed. Maybe RL25 or 33 will be the ticket. Any QL info on RL26?

 

[SJB358]

I don't have any Bill, but I'd bet someone with the latest version of QL could help you out. I bought 26 in high hopes it would work well in my 264 when I run out of 25.

 

[OU812]

What power scope are you using to shoot these groups? It's tough to shoot really tiny groups with a 10X and under, simply because you can't see that well.

When I was wringing out my Browning Abolt in .300 Win. some years ago, I kept detailed records and was surprised that at almost exactly the 100 round mark, the groups suddenly tight'nd up measureably.

I'm using a 14x. Well maybe it will tighten up as the round count goes up. I do know this barrel does not hardly copper foul at all or very little.

 

[OU812]

I don't have any Bill, but I'd bet someone with the latest version of QL could help you out. I bought 26 in high hopes it would work well in my 264 when I run out of 25.

Thanks Scotty. If you happen to try some let me know.

Odd thing to me with my groups is that it's not always a 3rd shot flyer that opens the group. It's been 1st and 2nd and 3rd shots.

 

[SJB358]

Sure will Bill. I have some 6.5 bullets I wanna test so I might load up some with RL26 and 140 AB's to see how it does. I will post up whatever I come up with though.

 

[OU812]

Sure will Bill. I have some 6.5 bullets I wanna test so I might load up some with RL26 and 140 AB's to see how it does. I will post up whatever I come up with though.

Perfect. I'll be anxious to see your results.

 

[gerry]

Bill have you had a chance to check run out on your loaded rounds? I can't remember if I mentioned it to you yet but the Winchester 264 WM brass I had was quite awful and I couldn't get rid of the fliers until I got a RCBS Casemaster that told the sad story. Took a lot of life out of the throat until I found that out. The Nosler brass was much better and Norma would be great too.

RL 26, Magnum or IMR 7828 would also be great to look at as well.

 

[DrMike]

Cartridge : .264 Win. Mag.
Bullet : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 74.854 grain H2O = 4.860 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-26

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   71    52.40   2483    1917   31309  12609     98.1    1.678
-18.0   72    53.71   2545    2014   33547  12915     98.8    1.638
-16.0   74    55.02   2607    2113   35906  13191     99.4    1.599
-14.0   76    56.33   2668    2213   38399  13434     99.7    1.552
-12.0   78    57.64   2729    2314   41046  13643    100.0    1.503
-10.0   79    58.95   2788    2417   43859  13819    100.0    1.455
-08.0   81    60.26   2848    2521   46846  13982    100.0    1.410
-06.0   83    61.57   2906    2625   50019  14143    100.0    1.367
-04.0   85    62.88   2964    2730   53389  14299    100.0    1.326  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   87    64.19   3020    2836   56970  14452    100.0    1.286  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   88    65.50   3077    2943   60775  14602    100.0    1.248  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   90    66.81   3133    3051   64821  14747    100.0    1.211  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   92    68.12   3188    3160   69125  14889    100.0    1.176  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   94    69.43   3243    3270   73705  15026    100.0    1.142  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   95    70.74   3298    3381   78584  15158    100.0    1.109  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   97    72.05   3353    3494   83784  15287    100.0    1.078  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 88 65.50 3191 3165 73956 14137 100.0 1.146 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 88 65.50 2903 2619 47616 15228 99.7 1.387

Cartridge : .264 Win. Mag.
Bullet : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 74.854 grain H2O = 4.860 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

46 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570                    100.1     72.8     4.72    3164    98.2    61500   17291   1.223  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33                 100.6     76.2     4.94    3150    98.5    61500   17073   1.226  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-50                 106.3     79.4     5.14    3142    98.0    61500   17424   1.252  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870                       106.2     75.7     4.90    3140    99.3    61500   16660   1.228  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo                    103.7     72.0     4.66    3128   100.0    61500   15111   1.214  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217                          105.9     72.0     4.66    3125   100.0    61500   15551   1.240  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560                     91.8     64.8     4.20    3101    99.8    61500   15512   1.217  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2                         99.3     68.5     4.44    3098   100.0    61500   15433   1.233  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                     92.1     67.6     4.38    3095    99.2    61500   15728   1.227  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                        90.9     64.4     4.17    3093    99.9    61500   15038   1.208  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                            96.1     64.4     4.17    3093    99.9    61500   15038   1.208  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000                      100.8     68.8     4.46    3085   100.0    61500   14713   1.203  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25                  97.0     66.6     4.32    3079   100.0    61500   14291   1.222  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41                   103.2     75.9     4.92    3076    93.6    61500   15925   1.207  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22                  92.2     64.3     4.17    3071   100.0    61500   14756   1.223  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon 50BMG                      108.6     76.1     4.93    3071    89.9    61500   16243   1.216  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                      94.6     64.6     4.19    3071   100.0    61500   14786   1.223  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon US 869                     108.3     79.6     5.16    3064    93.6    61500   15959   1.222  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 8700                      110.0     79.2     5.13    3057    97.5    59315   15668   1.234  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                      92.1     69.2     4.48    3048   100.0    61500   14115   1.226  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 20N29                   110.0     81.7     5.29    3048    95.5    59412   16074   1.251  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                       94.9     63.6     4.12    3028    99.7    61500   14196   1.209  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC                    91.2     63.6     4.12    3028    99.7    61500   14196   1.209  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170                    103.7     70.8     4.59    3022    97.0    61500   14893   1.232  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23                  94.0     63.5     4.11    3011   100.0    61500   13245   1.237  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165                     94.8     64.7     4.19    2987   100.0    61500   13207   1.225  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160                     95.3     63.0     4.08    2987    99.9    61500   13423   1.212  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                       92.5     63.8     4.13    2974   100.0    61500   13013   1.253  ! Near Maximum !

 

[OU812]

Bill have you had a chance to check run out on your loaded rounds? I can't remember if I mentioned it to you yet but the Winchester 264 WM brass I had was quite awful and I couldn't get rid of the fliers until I got a RCBS Casemaster that told the sad story. Took a lot of life out of the throat until I found that out. The Nosler brass was much better and Norma would be great too.

RL 26, Magnum or IMR 7828 would also be great to look at as well.

Gerry thanks for the information. I don't have any such tool to check run out but may very well get one soon. I know lots of guys use them but I've never bothered since I don't weigh the brass or bullets.

 

[OU812]

Cartridge : .264 Win. Mag.
Bullet : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 74.854 grain H2O = 4.860 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-26

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   71    52.40   2483    1917   31309  12609     98.1    1.678
-18.0   72    53.71   2545    2014   33547  12915     98.8    1.638
-16.0   74    55.02   2607    2113   35906  13191     99.4    1.599
-14.0   76    56.33   2668    2213   38399  13434     99.7    1.552
-12.0   78    57.64   2729    2314   41046  13643    100.0    1.503
-10.0   79    58.95   2788    2417   43859  13819    100.0    1.455
-08.0   81    60.26   2848    2521   46846  13982    100.0    1.410
-06.0   83    61.57   2906    2625   50019  14143    100.0    1.367
-04.0   85    62.88   2964    2730   53389  14299    100.0    1.326  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   87    64.19   3020    2836   56970  14452    100.0    1.286  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   88    65.50   3077    2943   60775  14602    100.0    1.248  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   90    66.81   3133    3051   64821  14747    100.0    1.211  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   92    68.12   3188    3160   69125  14889    100.0    1.176  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   94    69.43   3243    3270   73705  15026    100.0    1.142  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   95    70.74   3298    3381   78584  15158    100.0    1.109  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   97    72.05   3353    3494   83784  15287    100.0    1.078  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 88 65.50 3191 3165 73956 14137 100.0 1.146 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 88 65.50 2903 2619 47616 15228 99.7 1.387

Cartridge : .264 Win. Mag.
Bullet : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 74.854 grain H2O = 4.860 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

46 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570                    100.1     72.8     4.72    3164    98.2    61500   17291   1.223  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33                 100.6     76.2     4.94    3150    98.5    61500   17073   1.226  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-50                 106.3     79.4     5.14    3142    98.0    61500   17424   1.252  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870                       106.2     75.7     4.90    3140    99.3    61500   16660   1.228  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo                    103.7     72.0     4.66    3128   100.0    61500   15111   1.214  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217                          105.9     72.0     4.66    3125   100.0    61500   15551   1.240  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560                     91.8     64.8     4.20    3101    99.8    61500   15512   1.217  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2                         99.3     68.5     4.44    3098   100.0    61500   15433   1.233  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                     92.1     67.6     4.38    3095    99.2    61500   15728   1.227  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                        90.9     64.4     4.17    3093    99.9    61500   15038   1.208  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                            96.1     64.4     4.17    3093    99.9    61500   15038   1.208  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000                      100.8     68.8     4.46    3085   100.0    61500   14713   1.203  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25                  97.0     66.6     4.32    3079   100.0    61500   14291   1.222  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41                   103.2     75.9     4.92    3076    93.6    61500   15925   1.207  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22                  92.2     64.3     4.17    3071   100.0    61500   14756   1.223  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon 50BMG                      108.6     76.1     4.93    3071    89.9    61500   16243   1.216  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                      94.6     64.6     4.19    3071   100.0    61500   14786   1.223  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon US 869                     108.3     79.6     5.16    3064    93.6    61500   15959   1.222  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 8700                      110.0     79.2     5.13    3057    97.5    59315   15668   1.234  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                      92.1     69.2     4.48    3048   100.0    61500   14115   1.226  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 20N29                   110.0     81.7     5.29    3048    95.5    59412   16074   1.251  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                       94.9     63.6     4.12    3028    99.7    61500   14196   1.209  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC                    91.2     63.6     4.12    3028    99.7    61500   14196   1.209  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170                    103.7     70.8     4.59    3022    97.0    61500   14893   1.232  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23                  94.0     63.5     4.11    3011   100.0    61500   13245   1.237  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165                     94.8     64.7     4.19    2987   100.0    61500   13207   1.225  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160                     95.3     63.0     4.08    2987    99.9    61500   13423   1.212  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                       92.5     63.8     4.13    2974   100.0    61500   13013   1.253  ! Near Maximum !

Thanks Mike.

 

[gerry]

I don't weigh brass or bullets either but have read that starting a bullet out straight down the barrel is the most important factor. After I got the Casemaster I tried an experiment with a super accurate Savage 30-06 ones with .003" or less went under an inch at 100 yards, the ones .004" and over went over 2". Trying to get rid of runout can be frustrating since it could be the brass, or either of your dies of a combination of all 3. I have learned that top quality brass in the long run can be cheaper than the cheap stuff simply because you can find out what your gun really likes much quicker. Companies like RCBS and Redding put out good dies but occasionally they can put out a bad one.