Neck turning?

[joelkdouglas]

Do you guys think it makes much difference, if you're not running a match chamber & custom barrel?

And match grade, bushing type dies?

Thanks, Guy

Guy, I think with a normal factory hunting rifle one could hunt an entire life neck turning or not and not tell a difference. Even at the range it's hard to tell a difference in a rifle with a match chamber/aftermarket barrel.

However, I think the benefit for a neck turner is in the preparation. If someone turns necks that means they think about neck to brass clearance, neck thickness variation, concentricity, bullet tension, etc. Someone could think about all those things without neck turning, but neck turning forces the issue.

And then you shoot more to see if you can tell a difference, and the trigger time probably makes the most difference of anything we could ever do at the loading bench.

 

[JohnB]

I used to turn necks, but got away from it for the reasons Jim mentioned. I have started sorting my brass for neck wall thickness uniformity using the Sinclair tool with the stand and dial indicator. I have read that cases that show a difference in neck wall thickness will likely also have variations in case body thickness. German Salazar's articles talk about marking the thicker side of case bodies and inserting cartridges into the chamber with the thick side in the same position from round to round. Not very practical for hunting, but if you can discard the worst cases by sorting on neck thickness perhaps it might help. Makes me feel better anyway.

I have also been using expander mandrels in the same fashion as BD1 described. I read about this in a book on precision reloading.

I haven't run any extensive tests, but all of this does seem to consistently produce some accurate ammo.

JohnB

 

[Guy Miner]

And then you shoot more to see if you can tell a difference, and the trigger time probably makes the most difference of anything we could ever do at the loading bench.

Yes indeed.

Neck turning was the one area I balked at when I was intent on improving my ammo, for better 600 yard scores. I went to neck sized brass, Wilson dies, just the right bushings, but not to neck turning.

When I saw FACTORY match ammo producing sub 3" groups at 600 yards from the ol' Green Machine, I sorta decided that neck turning was a step I didn't need to take.

More ammo downrange though, You bet!

Guy

 

[Oldtrader3]

I use Nosler or Norma cases and Forster sizing dies. With these components and careful loading practices I have 6 rifles that shoot well under MOA. I do not bother neck sizing with Nosler or Norma cases.

 

[257 Ackley]

I turn necks for some match rifles, but not all. One 6BRX needs to have the necks turned because of a tight chamber, while the other BRX (done by a different gunsmith) doesn't. The one that needs turning is because of the throating reamer that was used. The one that doesn't need to be done had a .2704 reamer used (close as you can get without having to turn Lapua blue box cases) according to Dave Kiff at PT&G. I have shot more 200's with high X-counts this year with the rifle that needs the necks turned than the other one. My 6BR has a .271 neck and has never had necks turned, with good results at 600 yards (don't use it for the 1000 yard matches). You can use neck turning to make a false shoulder on a tight chamber if you are fire forming brass as well (going from 6BR to 6BRX or 6 Dasher, etc...). I use bushing dies on all of these rifles, so it is easy to see whether you have good neck tension all the way around on the case.

I turn necks on my 22BR as well to ensure I don't get the doughnuts when sizing brass from 6BR cases. This is for a Ruger #1 varmint rifle that I'm not as anal about .25 groups. I don't see the need to turn necks for any of my big game hunting rifles. It is always fun to shoot small groups on paper with our rifles, but real world application tells me I'm not that good at placing a shot on game that may be 300 yards away or moving through the bush.

Bottom line, there are more important things to "waste" your time with in the reloading process than turning necks, especially on a big game hunting rifle. If you want to shoot 1000 yard BR matches for group and score, turning necks will need to be part of your routine.

 

[Dwh7271]

Thank you guys for the answers!
Interesting.
More to it maybe than I thought.

 

[kraky]

Someone mentioned factory match grade ammo.
Buddy of mine dropped off 2 boxes of federal GM 308 w/175 sierra for me to sort run out.......yikes!
I think we had about 13 below 3 k run out.
We had 12 between 3 and 6 k run out.
We had 15 6k to 10 k.
For fun I corrected 5 of the worse on the true tool and marked all of them so he can compare in his very accurate savage LE hvy barrel accustock rifle.
Be interesting to see how they do!

 

[Darkhorse]

I neck turn every case that I might use for load testing and hunting. Why would you not go for the most accurate round when you are hunting? I just like sitting in my box stand on the power line or waiting on that bull elk to appear across the canyon, knowing the load I'm shooting groups into 1/4" or under. This is the end result of all the case prep, bullet and powder selection, and loading, that we do before the hunt. Possibly the one most critical shot of a year, or several years.
I shoot factory rifles and know for a fact neck turning has improved the group size.
However, neck turning is only one part of the puzzle. If you don't know how to set up your dies to size a perfectly concentric round that's matched to your chamber. Or your not willing to put in the time and bullets to work with your bullet seating depth to find the node for your rifle, etc. then you probably won't reap any great benefits from neck turning.
I turn to 85%. That means I don't clean the brass up all the way around as that is not my intent. I set up my neck turner to clean 85% of the neck as this will knock the high spots off and give you a concentric neck. I also use a carbide cutter with a radius and just touch the shoulder, blending the cut into the shoulder also helps get that round concentric in the chamber. Once set up I turn all my brass without touching or adjusting anything.
All I'm doing is cutting off the excess thus making the neck thickness basically the same all the way around.
I'm posting 3 photos. One is the neck turned and one is the other side of the same case. Also a photo of my Forster precision case trimmer with the neck turning attachment set up for turning. Along with a neat little tool from Lyman (and many others) a primer pocket uniformer. This is not a crimp remover. It cuts out the radius at the bottom of the pocket to a uniform depth.
Excuse the photo's but the cases gave me a hard time.

 

[SJB358]

Great info Darkhorse. I might have to try it out.

 

[Dwh7271]

Thanks Darkhorse.
Good information and pictures

 

[257 Ackley]

Great info Darkhorse. I might have to try it out.

Scott -
Knowing the way you reload and how concentric your loads are, I doubt neck turning will add much to your accuracy on the big boomers. Not saying it won't make a little difference when you are sitting at a bench shooting at 200 yards, but it won't make much difference when you are shooting at an elk out west off a pack (best case scenario).

The time and money invested in equipment to neck turn cases would be better spent behind the trigger. As Darkhorse said, setting up your dies properly, playing with seating depths, using the right powder, annealing your cases, bedding a rifle properly, etc...will be much more important.

 

[257 Ackley]

I neck turn every case that I might use for load testing and hunting. Why would you not go for the most accurate round when you are hunting? I just like sitting in my box stand on the power line or waiting on that bull elk to appear across the canyon, knowing the load I'm shooting groups into 1/4" or under. This is the end result of all the case prep, bullet and powder selection, and loading, that we do before the hunt.

Care to share pics of 1/4" or under groups with us? What range...how many shots in the group? Sling, bench and f-class shooters need specialized equipment, components, rifles and spend hours prepping cases for their matches (including neck turning) to get to .1 and .2 sized groups. We have guys show up every spring with their "hunting rifles", that they shot an elk at 1000 yards during the last hunting season, figure out real quick that they can't compete with even the guys shooting factory Savage match rifles. We have a guy on this website who routinely wins LR tactical matches, who has never turned a neck as far as I know.

If you have the time and need to know that the 1/4" group you shot on the bench is going to translate to harvesting a big game animal, turn away. I just find most of my hunting doesn't require me to turn necks to get .5 moa on the rifles I use for that purpose. Most of what you mention in the post is spot-on for making concentric and consistent loads. We see all the whistles and bells that manufacturers are making to give us the bragging size group for our ego and think it will translate to our hunting rifles. I shoot with a lot of engineers and machinists who are perfectionists and anal as can be. Most turn necks for their competition rifles; none on their hunting rifles.

The purpose of this is not to tell others not to turn necks, but to let them know that the money and effort spent on turning necks can be put to use in better ways; especially for a factory hunting rifle used for big game.

 

[Darkhorse]

To each his own.
One pic the center group measures sub 1/4". This was shot with my M700 7mm mag. while load testing. It is a 3 shot group.
Another pic is a 5 shot group. It has a couple of flyers to which I attribute 100% of the blame to me, the shooter. I was shooting with a 10X scope and these 62 year old eyes need more magnification.
I might have another photo or two, I'll look.
The early part of this year I glass bedded the wooden BDL stock and did a trigger job on the old Remington/Walker trigger. These are just test groups fired since then.

I have no targets for my .300 much to my dismay. When we moved back in 04 all those records somehow didn't make the trip.

I honestly never thought I'd be posting photos on the internet to prove my honesty. Or for someone else to disprove it.
But you know, I really didn't have to post those groups which were over 1/4" to prove my point or honesty, I only had to post the one group that measures .181
But that's a thing with people who speak with candor, they show the good with the bad.

 

[Dwh7271]

That's some fine shooting

 

[Darkhorse]

If I offended anyone with the post, which I just deleted completely, then please accept my apologies. I guess I just had a burr under my saddleblanket.

 

[257 Ackley]

If I offended anyone with the post, which I just deleted completely, then please accept my apologies. I guess I just had a burr under my saddleblanket.

I am the burr under your saddle, which was not my intention. If you read the last part of my post I stated "this is not intended to tell others not to turn necks, but to let them know that their money and time can be spent in more productive ways; especially for a factory hunting rifle". My intention was to let others know that setting up a die properly for concentricity, choosing powder with the right burn rate for the bullet being used, trying different seating depths, trying different primers, having a good trigger, bedding an action, etc...,will bring you gains much sooner than turning necks.

You obviously have great shooting rifles and take all the right steps to get them to shoot the way they do. It shows others that seating depth clearly makes a difference in your load development with all other parts being equal on the picture with three targets dated 3/14/14. I use the same target for load development work with my rifles at 100 yards.

Not every target looks like this, but you can get the idea of what loads that have proper components and load work are capable of: 5 shot group with the rifle I use for competition and no neck turning...

another:

The rifle used for this is a specialized rifle with components that would never be used for hunting. It has shot quite a few 200's with mid-teen X counts at 600-800 yards by me and a buddy that has used it.

 

[Darkhorse]

Great groups. I doubt I can equal it with 5 shots.
The 5 shot group I posted wasn't loaded with the most accurate combination of components but it was/is a possible hunting load. I had 5 bullets left over and just wanted to see what it would do at 5 shots.
Your right that money would be better spent for trigger time than neck turning tooling and the time spent. However, I've had the tooling for a long time and I'm retired so both points are not an issue for me anymore.
Before I started neck turning I got some pretty good groups over the years. Got a boxful of local trophys won with the .243 and 22-250. The 22-250 shot groups under .250 without neck turning using an original Lee loader.

The Model 700 rifle had been a safe queen since '97 and last year I decided to hunt with it again. The forend had warped so I didn't hunt it afterall. After the first of the year I glass bedded the action and barrel channel, but left the barrel floating. I also broke down the old Rem./Walker trigger a couple of times until I got 3 pounds with very little creep and safe but minimal engagement.
I was prepared to rebarrel it as in the past I had burned a lot of powder through it shooting from position and I wasn't sure of the condition of the original Rem. barrel.
My load testing is just really getting started but I've already decided that for a hunting rifle it's a keeper.
I want a hotter load than 61. grains as where I'm hunting a 450 yard shot is likely. So I've got some loads loaded up with 150 CBT's and more grains of powder, just waiting for the heat to break a little. All are neck turned as that is just a part of my process. I have shot a few at that loading and I think I'll be lucky to get .200 or less but only shooting will tell.
I'm still looking for that tight 5 shot group but with the equipment I use I'll be lucky to get it. Next time I'll lay off the coffee before I go shoot.

 

[SJB358]

Man. Great shooting. That's some serious driving. Great thread.

No matter what you all say, I'm getting the mandrels to start out with. Can't help myself. :lol:

If I don't get around to turning that's okay too, but I don't mind measuring things so a concentricity gauge needs to get bought as well. If I can minimize errors in my process I'll be okay with that too. If I don't gain anything I won't be heart broken at all. I love to put good stuff into the rifles so we shall see.

 

[Dwh7271]

Yep to all of that.
If nothing else, you guys can shoot! Nice!
Mandrels and gauge definitely. No reason, just because. :grin:
Thanks!

 

[BD1]

Scotty and Dewey,
You won't be heart broken, this is a 5 shot sample load for a 22-250 yote' rifle I was working on, it wasn't a 100 yd chip shot either.........