Need some help figuring this one out

[onlybrowning]

I have been helping a buddy reload for his Ruger M77 Hawkeye in .338 Federal. The gun is stainless with a synthetic stock.

He and I are both unable to get groups under 3 inches or so, and some were over 5" at 100 yds.

Here is a history of the gun and loads tried.

-The gun has never been fed a factory round

-first loads made were with 200 grain CT BST with H4895. The gun shot best with 47.5 grains at the time. We used Fed 210M primers.

-The load was switched to use Nosler 210 gr Partitions and Varget powder. None of the loads from min to max were better than about 3 inches.

-Switched to H4895 with the same Partition. Same thing, no good.

-Switched to the 200 grain AccuBond with H 4895. No good results so far. We assumed that the gun would like a similar load to the 200 grain CT BST, but it does not.

-The COL is 2.880" which is the longest the magazine will allow. The max COL for the chamber is 2.970" That seems really long to me...

Note: we have tried shooting it clean, dirty, and in between. The gun is very inconsistent. It has not been bedded, which I know will help, but I did try to put some upward pressure on the barrel at the forend with no avail. I can not figure this thing out. I am suspecting a bad crown, but it looks ok.

Another thing: Everytime he cleans the gun (using Barnes solvent) it seems that the patches have a black waxy substance on them. I have never seen anything like it.

Any ideas? He is hoping to hunt with this gun soon....

 

[onlybrowning]

PS: We have checked all screws and made sure all mounts and bedding screws are tight numerous times.

PPS:Oh, we have tried 2 different scopes (not cheap ones) and it made no difference.
Rob

Please help!!!! :?: :?: :?:

 

[Big Squeeze]

I have been helping a buddy reload for his Ruger M77 Hawkeye in .338 Federal. The gun is stainless with a synthetic stock.

He and I are both unable to get groups under 3 inches or so, and some were over 5" at 100 yds.

Here is a history of the gun and loads tried.

-The gun has never been fed a factory round

-first loads made were with 200 grain CT BST with H4895. The gun shot best with 47.5 grains at the time. We used Fed 210M primers.

-The load was switched to use Nosler 210 gr Partitions and Varget powder. None of the loads from min to max were better than about 3 inches.

-Switched to H4895 with the same Partition. Same thing, no good.

-Switched to the 200 grain AccuBond with H 4895. No good results so far. We assumed that the gun would like a similar load to the 200 grain CT BST, but it does not.

-The COL is 2.880" which is the longest the magazine will allow. The max COL for the chamber is 2.970" That seems really long to me...

Note: we have tried shooting it clean, dirty, and in between. The gun is very inconsistent. It has not been bedded, which I know will help, but I did try to put some upward pressure on the barrel at the forend with no avail. I can not figure this thing out. I am suspecting a bad crown, but it looks ok.

Another thing: Everytime he cleans the gun (using Barnes solvent) it seems that the patches have a black waxy substance on them. I have never seen anything like it.

Any ideas? He is hoping to hunt with this gun soon....

............................Perhaps you should go away from the H4895 and try another. You`ve changed the bullets, but not the powder which seems to be the common denominator with the less accurate loadings................That rifle just simply, may not prefer H4895 and it may be just that simple to correct......... That would be my starting recomendation; change the powder.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

It sounds like you have already tried more then on shooter :grin:

Is the barrel free floated?

This is a small case. with the stick style H powders (especially H4895), I would try CCI 200 primers.

I would stay away from partitions (too finicky), and stick with the 200gr BSST, and I would also try the 180gr BT.

From the gut, without my book in front of me, I would try 180gr BT, CCI200 primers, and H4895.....and that same combination with Varget....

Black Waxy stubstance in the barrel, could it be the coating on the BSST? I usually don't have that when I shoot them in my .338. Well, I would get a Hoppies Tornado brush and begin with some Sweets, followed by some Kroils penetrating oil....

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I would at least try a different powder. Some guns just hate 1 powder, but love another. If you try 2 or 3 powders, your gun will definately let you know what IT prefers instead of what you WANT IT to prefer.

Sounds like everything else is ok. Good scopes, tight screws, different shooters, trying known accurate bullets like BST's and AB's.

How are you shooting the groups?? Off a bench, sand bags, a truck hood, bi pod??

Trigger work, free float and bedding is not neccasarily needed in most cases to make a gun shoot at least 1.5" at 100 yards.

It could just have a very very bad barrel as some Rugers are known to be pretty crappy shooters. My experience with Rugers has been VERY good though.

Primer change can have a small result in accuracy at 100 yards, though sometimes not that dramatic at 100 yards. Very little if any difference in other words at 100 yards. At longer range, primer swaps can cut groups in half, but not usually at 100 yards...

I would just recomend you try 1 or 2 more powders and go from there. Since being I havne't played with the 338 federal or have any experience, I cant give a recomendation on powder. Maybe someone else can.

Hope it works out before hunting season though, I know the feeling.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

BS does have a good point about powders.
If I was to choose something different it would probably be something in the 748/H335/Blc(2) class with benchrest primers, and the 180/200 BT.

 

[JD338]

I would start with different powders, RL15, W748, IMR4895 and in that order.
The bullets you are working with are all excellent bullets, capable of excellent accuracy. You might also want to check to make sure that the barrel is not touching the stock from the recoil lug to the pressure point at the tip of the forend. What are you using to rest the rifle when you shoot?
Let us know ow she shoots.

JD338

 

[Savage99]

onlybrowning,

Bring a screwdriver that fits the guard screws to the range. The first thing that I try is to loosen the rear guard screw. If there is a middle guard screw loosen that also. If it shoots now it may mean that the bedding is not even and the rear screws are bending the action.

I have "broken the corner" on a number of crowns myself on rifles that would not shoot well no matter what I had tried to that point. Fixing the crowns made them shoot. On most of those I could not see any defect on the crowns that I worked on.

 

[onlybrowning]

Ok, so I forgot to mention that we have tried Varget as well. Same results.

I free floated his barrel before we even shot the gun. The stock was contacting in a few places when the gun was new.

I tried folding a thick cleaning patch in half, and lifting on the barrel, and sliding it under at the tip of the forend. First two shots touched each other, third was about 2 inches away.

The locally trusted gunsmith (who does my work on my Brownings) said to try more barrel pressure. He suggested a few layers of index cards, and see how she shoots. He said to take the barreled action out of the stock and put enough in to get a lot of good pressure on it.

We are shooting off a competition bench rest with rear bag.

Chrony results show that the loads are very consistent with velocity.

The smith also recommended checking how the action sits in the stock by applying a heavy oil to the action and setting it in the stock and tightening down. Then take it out and see where it is contacting.

I have never seen a gun that needed barrel pressure, but I admit my experience is not that broad.

Thanks for the help so far...keep it coming!

Rob

 

[onlybrowning]

I have "broken the corner" on a number of crowns myself on rifles that would not shoot well no matter what I had tried to that point. Fixing the crowns made them shoot. On most of those I could not see any defect on the crowns that I worked on.

How did you do this?

 

[Greg Nolan]

All the above are ways to go, It sounds like a problem I just encountered with a new Win. Black shadow. Now, the Ruger line of firearms are about as consistant and bullet proof as they get , but! Sometimes there is a flaw. I would not modify things beyond loads and bullets before I sent it back to Ruger to check it out. It's easy to overlook that option but they can and will find and fix the problem for you. The only thing I might try is a box of factory ammo but if the OAL of your loads is the same as factory I would send it back. Ruger has a good reputation and they uphold it.
I mentioned my Winchester Black Shadow. I finally gave up and sent it back. They said minor adjustments on the invoice. (They sent me a new rifle). No matter how good their quality control is sometimes a bad one slips through and it shouldn't be at your expense to repair. They have all the equipment and expertise to do it right.
Good Shooting
Elkhunt :grin:

 

[OU812]

As for handloads ya might look at IMR4895 and RL15. I would also give a different bullet a test drive (Hornady SP).

If nothing else run some factory stuff to see what takes place, might answer some questions.

 

[r1ng_mo0s3]

make sure the entire barrel has cooled to the ambient temperature befor squizing the next shot. i like to use those cans of compressed air (that is used to clean computer componets) and blow the air from the camber end out through the muzzle. i always shoot better groups when the barrel temp is consistently the same temperature before each shot. heat build-up leads to increased pressure. inconsistent pressure leads to inconsistent groups. seems like a headache but if you want tite groups this is just another strategy to consider. works for me when i want a one hole group with my 7 mag and 30-06. best of luck!

 

[Savage99]

I have "broken the corner" on a number of crowns myself on rifles that would not shoot well no matter what I had tried to that point. Fixing the crowns made them shoot. On most of those I could not see any defect on the crowns that I worked on.

How did you do this?

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... ost2385599

 

[FOTIS]

I would fire factory rounds. 1 box......here is why


Do like 4-5 3 shot groups and send the crappy (hopefully) reults with the rifle to Ruger.

I have pesronally owned well over 200 rifles according to my records. I have handloaded for at least that many for others.

This is the CHEAPEST shortcut when a rifle is giving you 4-5" groups at 100 yards with ANY carefully concocted handloads......no matter what the load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FOTIS]

I would fire factory rounds. 1 box......here is why


Do like 4 or 5 -----------------3 shot groups and send the crappy (hopefully) reults with the rifle to Ruger. They will take care of it.

""SIDE NOTE. 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards with facory is within Remington/Ruger accuracy parameters. Pretty crappy for $600-$1000 guns huh""
I have pesronally owned well over 200 rifles according to my records. I have handloaded for at least that many for others.

This is the CHEAPEST shortcut when a rifle is giving you 4-5" groups at 100 yards with ANY carefully concocted handloads......no matter what the load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[onlybrowning]

The local gunsmith suggested applying more pressure on the barrel from the stock's forend. I know my friend doesn't want to send his gun back because our season opens in 1 month. This may be his only good option though.

Thanks for all of your help, it is much appreciated.

Rob

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Sometimes the pressure will work, especially on thin, light barrels.

Is that Hawkeye a light barrel??

 

[Guest]

All suggestions so far are good ones. Try a different brand of bullet, different brand of powder, etc. Checking the crown is a great starting point. A marble rolled on it with a little lapping compound will do the trick if the nicks are extremely minor. You can order a lap from Brownells, and do it with a power drill. Or your local gunsmith may do it for a small fee. I'd try out factory ammo, too. And I'd check the guard screws at the range, as well. Really, the issue is going to come down to one of these, or it's going to be serious and require sending the gun back.

 

[onlybrowning]

Well my buddy went to the range solo with a couple things to try and found that his gun went from shooting 5-6" groups to shooting 1"-1.5" groups by putting about a 1/8" thick piece of cardstock under the barrel.

Now he needs to make it permanent. I told him I thought he should use bedding compound...or some kind of good epoxy.

Rob