Okay done bragging, had a dismal failure again whith H414

[taylorce1]

I bought an 8lb keg a few years back of H414 when a local gun shop was closing, I got it and a Keg of W760 for $140 combined. I've not tapped into the keg of W760 as it is the old metal can and I really bought it because I thought it was kind of cool. I've tried the H414 in my .243 Win, .375 Ruger, and today in my .30-06.

I used Hogdon data on this for the 165 grain Sierra bullet stating load was 54.5 grains and maxed out at 56.5 grains. I loaded up five rounds of each load and moved up .5 grains increments until I reached 56.5 grains. The primer was CCI 200 and the brass was R-P, I had a .020 jump to the lands. I usually only shoot three shot group of each load and only use another cartridge if I call a flyer.

Well just like the .243 Win when I tried this powder in it, I'm getting pressure signs right off the bat. Flattened primers, erratic speed over the chrony, and shiny spots on the headstamps. What I'm not getting is sticky bolt lift or extraction problems. The .375 Ruger never had these problems I just never found any accuracy I was happy with. Anyway I've probably 5.5 lbs of the powder left but I can't find where it works well, and with the pressure signs early on I'm afraid to really push it.

The only thing I can possibly think of is maybe switching to a magnum primer? I'm wondering since the case is far from full if I'm getting some detonation? I'm thinking maybe a hotter primer will get the powder burning at a consistent rate. The reason I ask is I used a magnum primer in my .375 Ruger and never had pressure signs until I was close to or slightly over max book loads.

 

[DrMike]

The rule of thumb is to use magnum primers on ball powders to ensure complete and consistent ignition.

 

[Wincheringen]

I haven't used it, but I'm familiar with the Winchester ball powder characteristics. H414/W760 has a heavy deterrent coating, I'm sure you noticed when pouring it into a measure or smaller container.

Not all ball powders are built this way, and for the most part don't arbitrarily require magnum primers. Alliant, Ramshot, and Accurate ball powders don't have this attribute.

Anyway, it has been documented that Winchester ball powders do perform best with magnum strength primers.

 

[FOTIS]

215 M cap

 

[taylorce1]

I guess Winchester LR primers must be hotter than CCI's? I have Winchester LRM primers but since the loads only called for regular Winchester LR I substituted the CCI since I have a lot more of them. I use magnum primers when the load recipes call for it, but if they don't I just stick to regular primers. I've never just used magnum primers with ball powders as a rule of thumb. Thanks DM, I'll give it a go and let you know how things turn out.

 

[BD1]

Taylorce,
IME, the WLR caps I've been buying over the last 5-10 years have been the hottest of the standard primers.
I wouldn't say that's always been the case or will remain that way either.......
Fed 215M's have been very consistent mag primers for ball powder and magnum rifle loads for me.
Good luck with your 414 loads,
Best,
BD

 

[Rem Jim]

Use F215M primers for sure !! with the H414 or W760 powders ! RJ

 

[Vince]

I was getting symptoms similar to you when I was working up loads for my 25/06.
Switching bullets and powder gave me the combo I was looking for. I was trying to load a boattail bullet when my gun favored a flat base and using various powders when I found one it liked. All my issues went away and I started shooting half inch groups.
I never got back to trying a boattail bullet again in that rifle so I can't tell you if it was the bullet change or the powder change that made the difference but I hit on the right combination and stuck with it. I tried another flat based bullet, heavier, and with the same powder it too gave me what I was looking for.
Just a thought. Good luck in developing a load your rifle likes.

 

[rick smith]

I use H-414 in 22/250 and W-760 in 7/08, 308. Never used a mag primer in any of the loads. Never had any problems. Rick.

 

[taylorce1]

I use H-414 in 22/250 and W-760 in 7/08, 308. Never used a mag primer in any of the loads. Never had any problems. Rick.

What primer are you using and what is your case fill like? The majority of my primers are CCI 200's, I never had a problem with the .375 Ruger but I used magnum primers in those loads. It's been a couple of years since I tried it in my .243 but I got flat primers, shiny head stamps, and hard bolt lift. .30-06 I got flat primers and shiny stamps, two out of three rifles same problems there's something wrong with what I'm doing. 54.5-56.5 grains of powder left a lot of empty space in my 06 cases, and I remembered reading that full cases usually get better ignition. So that is what got me thinking I need to use a hotter primer.

Here are the five starting loads I shot, speeds went from 2724-2900 fps and everything in between.

 

[rick smith]

Normally I use WLR primers in both calibers mentioned. Noticed that you have two different headstamps on your brass. Were you checking different brass? Don't remember what the fill looked like. Could be old powder or primers. If they were not stored properly the powder could be going bad.Rick.

 

[taylorce1]

Powder is good it was stored properly, so are the primers. I just needed one extra piece of brass for 25 loads.

 

[PJGunner]

Well, H414 and W760 are just different lot of the same powder.
Flattened primes have been rather common in my use of ball powders even with known mild loads. Just a theory of mine but I think some of thse little balls of powder sift down into the flash hole onto the primer and at ignition create a higher pessure level within the primer causing them to flatten earlier. I may be way off base on that, who knows but it makes sense to me. I used a lot of ball powder for a very long time and only recently have gone back to the log type powder such as 4350 an 4831. That's because of my RCBS Chargemaster. No more weighing, trickling, dumping and doing over anymore. 8)
Dunno why there would be a shiney spot yet bolt lift still easy? I have noted that Winchester brand factory ammo which is loaded with ball powder gives flattened primers and a shiney spot in just about every 30-06 rifle I own yet bolt lift is nice and easy. IIRC, Remington factory ammo did the same. The only one that didn't mark the brass is my Ruger #1B.
My thought is try the next level load and base an opinion on how that one works. I'm thinking things will square away the closer to the max load you go. That's how things worked for me when using ball powders. I've always used Winchester standard primers and never saw the need for a magnum cap. I might have to go that route though if I ever did a hunt in seriously cold weather.
Paul B.

 

[taylorce1]

Loaded up five rounds using magnum primers and got to shoot them today. Pressure signs were gone, all might be well with H414.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I, in a weak moment, bought a pound of H-380. I was thinking that I could use it for a substitute for IMR 4350. Well so far, I have tried it in two different rifles and have had no luck getting anything but a dirtier barrel. Groups in both calibers that I have had success with H-380 before are bust this time. Groups are 4-6 inches on a good day.

 

[Rem Jim]

I, in a weak moment, bought a pound of H-380. I was thinking that I could use it for a substitute for IMR 4350. Well so far, I have tried it in two different rifles and have had no luck getting anything but a dirtier barrel. Groups in both calibers that I have had success with H-380 before are bust this time. Groups are 4-6 inches on a good day.

4-6 inch groups are NOT a fault of the H380 powder or any other powder - you have other problems you need to look into ! :grin: JMHO RJ

 

[BD1]

Loaded up five rounds using magnum primers and got to shoot them today. Pressure signs were gone, all might be well with H414.

Good news..... How did they group?

 

[Oldtrader3]

I, in a weak moment, bought a pound of H-380. I was thinking that I could use it for a substitute for IMR 4350. Well so far, I have tried it in two different rifles and have had no luck getting anything but a dirtier barrel. Groups in both calibers that I have had success with H-380 before are bust this time. Groups are 4-6 inches on a good day.

4-6 inch groups are NOT a fault of the H380 powder or any other powder - you have other problems you need to look into ! :grin: JMHO RJ

Strange I ran the tests on a four way blind so that I would not know which powder was which in a 4 powder test and it still came out 4th by a wide margin like 1.25 to 3 inches. That is all I need to know. I don't waste expensive bullets and time on for load development on losers! :mrgreen:

 

[taylorce1]

Loaded up five rounds using magnum primers and got to shoot them today. Pressure signs were gone, all might be well with H414.

Good news..... How did they group?

About 4" but I went from 54.5-56.5 in half grain increments looking for pressure signs. I wasn't expecting any kind of group. 54.5-55.5 were about the same spot vertically but moved left .5-1" from the previous shot. 56-56.5 were climbing but the shift to the left got smaller. The 54.5 charge was within a half inch of POA, I'll load up some more loads later this week and shoot them for groups.

 

[BeeTee]

Here are the five starting loads I shot, speeds went from 2724-2900 fps and everything in between.

Those primers don't look like the loads were too hot.