Poor bullet penetration???

[Guy Miner]

Ever lose game to poor bullet penetration??? Can't say I ever had... Didn't ever recover even a chunk of bullet from game until I shot the mulie this year with the fragile 115 grain Berger VLD bullet from my .25-06 rifle. Even then penetration was more than sufficient, and the buck was plenty dead.

How 'bout it? Lose game due to poor bullet penetration? I think a lot of us like the Noslers because of how well the bullets can penetrate - but how many of us have lost game because of shallow/insufficient penetration?

What was it? Range? Cartridge & bullet?

Thanks!

 

[JD338]

I can't say that I have ever lost a game animal due to bullet failure, poor performance or lack of penetration. I have lost a couple of deer but it was operator error.
I have killed quite a few WT deer with a 30-06 and 150 gr - 180 gr PSPCL bullets. Only recovered a couple, 150 gr SPCL and a 200 gr PSPCL from my 35 Whelen. Only 1 Nosler, 140 gr BT from a WT deer. This one had core jacket separation, they were both together under the hide. Some may think this is bullet failure but I don't think so because I found it under the hide of a dead deer that dropped in its tracks.

JD338

 

[Guy Miner]

Concur JD338 - that's not bullet failure. That's a bullet designed to knock the snot out of deer-sized game, and it did so. I've never been displeased by the rapid expansion of a ballistic tip - that's one of the things I really like about 'em. The other is the accuracy! :grin:

Operator error? Who me??? I suppose it might have happened once. Or twice... 8)

 

[bobbyrum]

Honestly can't say I have lost game over the past 45 years due to bullet failure but 2 for sure, as the man says, due to man failure. Made me feel sick each time

 

[fjlee]

If someone loses an animal that they _KNOW_ they hit, how can they _KNOW_ they lost the animal cuz of poor penetration?

The critter isn't there to be examined..........

Once in a while I suppose someone finds their animal a few days later, and does an autopsy, but that may not be the norm..........

It seems to me that speculation about degree of penetration on an animal that ran off ....has a high chance of being erroneous.

I would imagine that a fair percentage of lost animals blamed on "lack of penetration" should really be blamed on poor bullet placement.

Lee in Denver CO

 

[JD338]

If someone loses an animal that they _KNOW_ they hit, how can they _KNOW_ they lost the animal cuz of poor penetration?

The critter isn't there to be examined..........

Once in a while I suppose someone finds their animal a few days later, and does an autopsy, but that may not be the norm..........

It seems to me that speculation about degree of penetration on an animal that ran off ....has a high chance of being erroneous.

I would imagine that a fair percentage of lost animals blamed on "lack of penetration" should really be blamed on poor bullet placement.

Lee in Denver CO

fjlee

The same goes with "Bullet Failure".There are a lot of deer that are "hit right behind the shoulder" and never recovered. These are the infamous "Bullet Failure" reports we read about. :wink:

JD338

 

[YoteSmoker]

I have not had any problems with killing with a well placed bullet but I did have a bullet break up on me once after hitting the brisket then into the chest cavity, but the deer dropped at the shot. My dad has lost a deer with a shoulder shot using Speer hot cores in 165 grain and hates them.

 

[jtoews80]

The only way one can claim bullet failure and prove it is if another member of your party spots your shot with his scope or stands ready to follow up your shot. After the fact you could discover a "bullet failure", albeit if you can operate that way it's kind of a moot point.

This system works well, I prefer it with inexperianced hunters, but you need somebody who you can trust to be safe and also not to intervene if unneeded. Would be a good idea to check game laws, this is legal where I hunt, but may not be where you do. Sure save tracking tho.

CC.

 

[jtoews80]

Otherwise just makes for interesting conversation back in camp :grin: I have never really had big problems with a rifle.

I did shoot a deer with a 300 grn .44 XTP out of a muzzle loader @ 100yds. I hit it high in the lungs, just about 2 inches below the spine I thought. The shot picked him up and landed him on his side, I thought he was done for, so I reloaded and walked up. GOt to about 1 step away and he got up and ran 200 yds to the bush.... I tracked that animal for about a kilometer and the bleeding stopped altogather, I never did recover that deer or see any buzzards. Was the darndest thing, but I think it lived. I was 16 at the time and it really bugged me, to put that critter thro that. THinking about it now, I must've hit him just below the spine and not really did any major damage to the lungs with that big slow slug. Probably just stunned the spinal cord, not hit any rigs and just carried on thro.

CC.

 

[Wally]

I shot a cow elk in the right front shoulder at about 75 yds with a 180 gr. Sierra flat base from a 30-06. She was standing about as perfectly broadside as one could ask. Muzzle velocity was approximately 2750 fps. She ran about 100 yds uphill, turned to go back down, and fell dead.

While quartering her, with Dad's help, we did a thorough autopsy. As I said, the bullet went through the right front quarter, below the shoulder blade, without hitting any bone. When we removed the quarter, the hole through the ribs was massive. I could stick my fist through the hole, and not touch anything.

When we removed the other shoulder, we discovered the bullet did not penetrate the ribs on the opposite (left) side of the cow. We then opened up the sternum very carefully with a hatchet. The lung on the right side was destroyed, the lung on the left side didn't hardly show a bruise.

I'll let ya'll be the judge whether the bullet failed. I had a dead elk, so I didn't lose any game. But, the performance of that bullet made me very uncomfortable. I like Sierra bullets for some uses, and I don't want to start a Sierra bashing thread. On the other hand, I haven't used that bullet any more for elk hunting. That particular 30-06 was a tempermental hag, and seemed to only want to shoot that bullet.

That rifle has long since gone to the pawn shop, but one lesson I learned is I will settle for larger groups and use a more reliable bullet for larger game. There are some cases where bullet performance should trump ultimate accuracy. On the other hand, we now have the AccuBond, the Partition, and some other very reliable big game bullets that shoot very well. If my rifle won't shoot one of them, there's something wrong with the gun!

Just my $.02,

Steve

 

[Guy Miner]

"If someone loses an animal that they _KNOW_ they hit, how can they _KNOW_ they lost the animal cuz of poor penetration? "

fjlee - yeah - I could have worded the original question better - it is sort of hard to tell if poor penetration was the problem when the critter runs away and isn't recovered! :grin: I guess I'll settle for asking if anyone has had problems with poor bullet penetration on game!

Looks like everyone figured out what I meant anyway! Thanks. :grin:

 

[Powerstroke]

+1 With JD's Statement.

Have I had bullets not perform like "I wanted them to" ? not necessarily like they were intended to....I'd say yes with mud back in my face.
If I've done my responsible part, there is always meat in the freezer.... :grin:

 

[jmad_81]

I have a friend that shot a spike elk last year three times with 180gr. Partitions, and swears to this day that they are the worst bullets for big game, and that the AB have much more penitration. I have never lost an animal with any bullet if I did my part. I am human and have had one deer get away from me with a gun. I also had some bad luck with a bow on a few small bullls.

Practice Practice Practice!!

 

[JDMAG]

The worst bullet performance I ever had was still my fault, and I still recovered the deer. I was muzzle loading one morning, and had forgotten to load before I left the house in the light. So in the dark I poured the powder down the tube, and started to put the saboted bullet in. Well as luck would have it, the Partition HG bullet I was using came out of the sabot, and when I put it back in, I put it in the sabot backwards.
Shortly after daybreak a smallish buck walked by, so I lined up and shot him. He ran about 30 yards and dropped over dead. when I recovered the bullet, it was in perfect condition, except a little bulged in the the base, and pointing out the hole it went in! thats not poor performance, but cant y'all make a bullet that expands from both directions? :twisted:

 

[JD338]

Well as luck would have it, the Partition HG bullet I was using came out of the sabot, and when I put it back in, I put it in the sabot backwards.

I'm thinking of a brick with a boat tail. :lol:

JD338

 

[JDMAG]

perty much. but it worked.
Ya know... there's got to be a good comercial there some where! :idea:
"they may not know if they're comin or goin, but they get the job done anyway!" Partition HG. wont be backed into a corner, but they will a deer!

 

[Guy Miner]

I'm sitting here laughing so hard I almost spilled my coffee! :grin: I could just see myself out there in the dark woods, remembering I hadn't loaded my muzzle loader and doing the same thing you did... Except I'd probably spill powder all over the place too.

Glad the bullet worked. Backwards eh? Must have been one heck of a frontal area that smacked the poor deer! :shock:

 

[bobbyrum]

Boy, muzzleloaders can sure make you laugh/cry sometimes :lol: 5 years ago I was videoing my hunt. A nice little buck passed 15 yards in front of me. Camera was already on. Gun was on a rest. I squeezed the trigger and got the loudest click you could imagine :shock: Deer was immediately alert. I realized the cross hammer safety button was on Now, once in a while, I play the video back. The deer had passed out of view of the camera. What I got was click (trigger pull), click (reset trigger), click (released cross hammer safety), boom :!: Deer ran 30 yards and collapsed. All I could do was laugh :lol:

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Most of the true "bullet failures" I've seen were, in my opinion, a failure in bullet choice. An old friend used to hunt elk with a 30.06. He hand loaded 200gr spear bullets, but only launched them around 2400. As you can imagine, he often suffered from both poor penetration, and poor expansion. If he had loaded 165gr Partitions up around 2900, it would of solved all his problems. I've watched (meaning spotting scope on the critter when he pulls the trigger) another person I hunt with loose more then one deer. He shoots 175gr Partitions out of his 7mm at low velocities.
Big tough bullets, low velocitiy, too small of a critter = poor performance.

 

[cottonman1973]

I have killed over 200 whitetails and a truck load of hogs and I will say that every animal I ever lost was due to the loose nut behind the trigger and not the bullet.