QuickLoad questions thread...

[Ridgerunner665]

The info quoted below is from Chris Long...obtained from the following link, http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index. ... =1645308.0

"techshooter" is Chris Long...

In my experience, the most effective method to "calibrate" QL to range data is to adjust the burn rate parameter of the powder - Ba, and leave the weighting factor close to the recommended for that cartridge. Powder lot variations in burn rate can easily be +-5% in the extreme. Tweaking Ba a few percent can get QL results very, very close to actual measured performance data. I record that adjusted value on the jug of powder so I don't forget it.

Changing Ba is easy: On the QL "Charge" window, the one where you input the charge weight, click the little icon just to the left of the drop down list bar that you use to select the powder. This will turn the powder parameter fields below from gray to white, allowing you to edit them. Just change the value of Ba to suit your fancy, with a larger number meaning a faster burn rate, and higher pressures/velocities. The powder name in the list field will now have ? marks before and after, telling you that the default values are overridden. To recover the original values, just click the icon again, and re-select the powder. This does not permanently change the powder data. You can however make a new entry into the powder database with this new burn rate - in effect a "custom" powder. Read the QL manual for instructions on how to add and edit powder records.

If I am using my PressureTrace instrument as well as the chronograph, I will adjust both Ba and the weighting factor to get both the pressure and velocity to track perfectly. The weighting factor is a qualitative estimate of how much energy the powder is using to accelerate the unburned powder with the bullet. A factor of 1 means that all the powder is moving, and 0 means that it all stays in the case during the burn. It does have an effect on the results, but I recommend that you not deviate too far from the baseline, and tweak Ba instead.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The default values are not measured, just estimated...as are many, many other things in QuickLoad...thats why we have to carefully tweak it to make it more accurate.

That said,
Pay particular attention to the last paragraph in the previous quote from Chris Long...the explanation of what the weighting factor is...QL should have worded their description better...

Lets look at one of the most overbore rounds out there...the 7mm Remington Ultra Mag...QL gives it a weighting factor of .7, seems odd...but is it?

According to Chris (who is a very smart guy) .7 means most of the powder is moving down the bore with the bullet...when you consider the very slow burn rate of powders used with the 7mm RUM, that makes sense...thats a lot of slow burning powder to get burning...and it doesn't all burn while in the case.

Now...lets look at the good old 45-70...when fired, most of that powder also gets pushed down the bore some before it gets burned...but for a different reason that the 7mm RUM....the 45-70 gets a weighting factor of .75 because its a straight walled case, and even though the powders used in it are relatively fast burning, due to the lack of the funneling effect of the neck on bottleneck rounds the powder still gets moved down the bore before it burns.

In short...weighting factor isn't a measure of overbore...its a measure of how much powder burns while its inside the case.

 

[Wyo7200]

I really think Hartmut Broemel accidentally put the .7 number in the database for the 7 RUM- It's cool he built in the ability to change it.

This lists the cartridge data- found in the qloadfw VOL file:
"7 mm Rem Ultra Mag ","112","2.85",".284",".7","40.39","440","Piezo CIP","3.6","","","","","","","","","","","","7MMRUM.jpg"

I don't have a 7 RUM to test it, but the factor will change based on the measured inputs of a user using the cartridge data case capacity calculation in QL.

Just using noslers data in the loads, it dropped down to .5:

 

[Wyo7200]

Thought I'd do one for a 7 STW, using what Nosler has in its loads:

QL lists:

"7 mm STW ","97","2.85",".284",".6","40.39","460","Piezo CIP","3.65","","","","","","","","","","","","7MMSTW.jpg"

 

[RiverRider]

A question I would ask is whether anyone has successfully determined a ba for a given powder and verified that it accurately predicts results in a variety of cartridges. I can see how you might make H4831 track perfectly for a .243 and still be way off for a 7 Mag. I haven't verified that this is the case (due to what my battery consists of and dedicated purpose of each rifle). If the adjusted ba proves to be applicable across the board, then I might buy the idea that the default weighting factors are useful. To me, as it stands, the program contradicts itself and I'd have to ask why the info pop-up continue to convey contradictory information.

 

[Mikey338]

I'm using H4831 in my 243 and have to put slightly different values in for the Ba when changing bullet weights, 87-105 grain so would imagine you would have to prove it with every different caliber as well. I just hope my chronograph is accurate.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

A question I would ask is whether anyone has successfully determined a ba for a given powder and verified that it accurately predicts results in a variety of cartridges. I can see how you might make H4831 track perfectly for a .243 and still be way off for a 7 Mag. I haven't verified that this is the case (due to what my battery consists of and dedicated purpose of each rifle). If the adjusted ba proves to be applicable across the board, then I might buy the idea that the default weighting factors are useful. To me, as it stands, the program contradicts itself and I'd have to ask why the info pop-up continue to convey contradictory information.

I don't believe that can be done...not for "a variety of cartridges"...because the same powder will react differently in different cartridges.

On the relationship between weighting factor and Ba...you're not wrong, there is a relationship, but I believe you're overthinking it a little...the default weighting factors are "close enough" that the adjusted Ba doesn't really cause any drastic changes to how much powder gets pushed out with the bullet...Ba and WF stay more or less relative, regardless of the round in question.

I don't think the pop-ups are necessarily contradicting themselves...instead I think they just chose their words poorly.

If anybody doesn't know who Chris Long is...he is the brains behind the OBT (optimal barrel time) theory.

http://www.the-long-family.com/

 

[Wyo7200]

Local SW finally got some factory .300 blkout 110gr Varmageddons in at a decent price so I snagged two boxes in an attempt to determine just how much fps gain the polygonal rifling gives. There wasnt a test barrel length listed on the box, but the velocity was 2150. I am guessing that the test barrel was 16" or longer, based on load data and them being loaded with the Varmageddon series bullets. Attached the chronograph, loaded some up aaaaannnnd 2340 fps! My barrel manufacture states that there is some increase of velocity... but ~190 fps gain is something else. I need to call Nosler and see if they could let me know what length of barrel was used to get that 2150 fps speed. Maybe they did use a 9" barrel...

Grouped about the same as my hand loads in 110gr, but has some problems feeding so wont be buying anymore of them.

 

[Wyo7200]

I did this in another forum- thought I'd share it here too. Original question was if a dented 5.56 round was safe to fire. Doing this make me also question, does it really make a difference to let the water sit over night and go "flat"? I don't think so after doing this little experiment. I'm no geologist, but I think the dent would displace more than however many of O molecules escape during the night (going in reverse).

I did top them off after taking the pic.

Once fired non dented capacity: 31.2gr
Powder: h335, 26.1gr, 92% capacity,
56879 psi.

Dented capacity: 30.7gr
Powder: h335, 26.1gr, 93% capacity,
59081 psi.

A .5 tenths of a grain decrease in capacity increased psi by 2200 psi. If your rifle isn't showing p.signs shooting non dented rounds, 2k psi increase may not jump into kaboom levels, yet it is risky imo since not all dents (and components) are equal."

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The dent don't matter as far as pressure goes...when fired the pressure pushes the dent out... The chamber dimensions dictate pressure.

 

[Wyo7200]

I'm thinking of all those people saying you should let the water sit to go flat. Im thinking its one of those, "if it makes you feel good" things.

 

[RiverRider]

My tap water is pretty darned flat. Could be just a local thing though.
:mrgreen:

 

[Wyo7200]

I’ve heard of folks having two loads for cold and warm weather when using reloder powders. I take it for most that this will be a “no duh”, but I think it is neat to see how it is modeled with chrono data and QL’s math. It’s not conclusive, but I do feel confident in the process and confident from testing several load combinations in regards to the OBT node. Maybe you will see the POI shift within these temp ranges as the btime changes over the node and the bullet exits either faster and higher or the exit slower and lower for example. When the btime gets outside of the range, you may experience group dispersion. I think I will compare my hodgdon H335, CFE 223, W748 and Varget as well.

Working off an OBT 1.228 node with a +/- 2% range:

Fast: 1.20344
Middle: 1.228
Slow: 1.25256

Here is a load developed in cold weather. I already calibrated the BR in QL at 70* to match the velocity represented at 70*. This calibration is very close to being spot on throughout the temperature ranges when compared to recorded velocity at temperature.

56.9gr R25 Chrono at 20*, 3120 fps. Small group
56.9gr R25 Chrono at 75*, 3215 fps. Huge group

At 10*, BR of .3802 +00.0 100 56.90 3098 2341 43566 14046 97.6 1.240
At 20*, BR of .3835 +00.0 100 56.90 3117 2371 44359 14072 98.1 1.230
At 30*, BR of .3872 +00.0 100 56.90 3139 2404 45252 14090 98.5 1.218
At 40*, BR of .3906 +00.0 100 56.90 3158 2433 46097 14097 98.9 1.208
At 50*, BR of .3947 +00.0 100 56.90 3180 2468 47124 14093 99.3 1.196
At 60*, BR of .3988 +00.0 100 56.90 3202 2502 48173 14076 99.6 1.184
At 70*, BR of .4020 +00.0 100 56.90 3218 2527 49006 14054 99.7 1.175
At 80*, BR of .4059 +00.0 100 56.90 3238 2558 50031 14017 99.9 1.165

From this estimate list-
If I only changed the BR at QL’s stock 70* to match what was recorded at 20*, all the estimates from 30* and above will be grossly off. According to the estimates above, the OBT spans from 0* to 50*. Probably why the huge group at 75*.

If I want to, and will be, hunting at 50* and above, A better temperature to conduct load development is 60*, which provides 55.7gr and an OBT of 1.225. Tested well at 75*.

+00.0 98 55.70 3128 2387 44930 13848 99.1 1.225

At 30*, BR of .3872 +00.0 98 55.70 3064 2291 42284 13806 97.8 1.259
At 40*, BR of .3906 +00.0 98 55.70 3084 2320 43058 13829 98.2 1.249
At 50*, BR of .3947 +00.0 98 55.70 3107 2355 44011 13845 98.7 1.236
At 60*, BR of .3988 +00.0 98 55.70 3128 2387 44930 13848 99.1 1.225
At 70*, BR of .4020 +00.0 98 55.70 3146 2415 45768 13842 99.4 1.214
At 80*, BR of .4059 +00.0 98 55.70 3167 2448 46789 13822 99.6 1.203

If I will be shooting within 0 to 40*, 56.9gr will be good. If I am shooting at 50 to 90, 55.7gr should be good, as shown on paper and chrono.

Doing this for IMR 4831- I don’t have to use QL’s temp adjustments based off chronograph readings.

Working off an OBT 1.228 node with a +/- 2% range:

Fast: 1.20344
Middle: 1.228
Slow: 1.25256

52gr IMR 4831 Chrono at 20*, 3168 fps. Small group
52gr IMR 4831 Chrono at 75*, 3159 fps. Small group

At 20*, BR of .4450 +00.0 91 52.00 3168 2228 45435 12745 98.5 1.203
At 75*, BR of .4450 +00.0 91 52.00 3168 2228 45435 12745 98.5 1.203

The following is applying the previous method to determine best temperature to load for in the 6.5 Creedmoor and 22-250- which share the same R17 Powder. Since I do not have hot weather chrono data for the 6.5, I am using 22-250’s cold weather and hot weather 70* calibration, which was close between the two calibers in QL/ cold weather chrono data, though I am not positive about the temperature which they were developed at.

For the Creedmoor, using R17:

42.5GR, 60* F, 2936 fps,
Working off an OBT 1.228 node with a +/- 2% range:

50*F +00.0 91 42.50 2912 2316 48263 10199 100.0 1.222

Fast: 1.20344
Middle: 1.228
Slow: 1.25256

At 30*, BR of .4700 +00.0 91 42.50 2882 2269 46459 10263 99.7 1.242
At 40*, BR of .4756 +00.0 91 42.50 2896 2291 47275 10237 99.8 1.233
At 50*, BR of .4805 +00.0 91 42.50 2912 2316 48263 10199 100.0 1.222
At 60*, BR of .4855 +00.0 91 42.50 2928 2342 49308 10152 100.0 1.211
At 70*, BR of .4897 +00.0 91 42.50 2940 2361 50149 10110 100.0 1.202
At 80*, BR of .4946 +00.0 91 42.50 2955 2385 51236 10060 100.0 1.192

I’m looking at an estimated range between 30* and 70*

Dropping the charge to 40gr and developing the load at 70*F, I get a range between 40* and 90*. This will be tested when I get a chance.


For the 22-250, using R17:

38.1gr, 0* F, 3385 fps
38.1gr, 30* F, 3448 fps

Working off an OBT 1.0126 node with a +/- 2% range:

Fast: .9923
Middle: 1.0126
Slow: 1.0328

0* 0.458 +00.0 95 38.10 3382 1526 42798 12967 93.4 1.035
30* 0.4700 +00.0 95 38.10 3455 1593 45266 13169 95.6 1.008
40* 0.4756 +00.0 95 38.10 3477 1613 46049 13216 96.1 1.000
50* 0.4805 +00.0 95 38.10 3503 1637 46995 13263 96.8 0.991
60* 4.855 +00.0 95 38.10 3528 1661 47975 13301 97.4 0.981
70* 0.4897 +00.0 95 38.10 3549 1680 48810 13325 97.8 0.973
80* 0.4946 +00.0 95 38.10 3573 1704 49838 13344 98.3 0.964
90* 0.4989 +00.0 95 38.10 3593 1723 50715 13353 98.7 0.957

That load is good for cold weather. Haven't shot paper with it at warmer temps but I have missed more P.dogs at 200 in the warmer months.

I will be testing a 39.2gr at 70* to give me faster fps, OBT node, and a temp range between 40* and 90*.

30 0.47 +00.0 98 39.20 3571 1702 49747 13576 97.0 0.963
40 0.4756 +00.0 98 39.20 3592 1722 50616 13606 97.5 0.956
50 0.4805 +00.0 98 39.20 3617 1746 51669 13632 98.0 0.947
60 4.855 +00.0 98 39.20 3642 1770 52757 13648 98.5 0.938
70 0.4897 +00.0 98 39.20 3661 1789 53631 13653 98.8 0.931
80 0.4946 +00.0 98 39.20 3686 1813 54833 13649 99.2 0.922
90 0.4989 +00.0 98 39.20 3706 1832 55812 13637 99.4 0.915 ! Near Maximum !

My thoughts are Reloder powders have a larger range of tolerance when developed in the 60’-70’s- and will probably be more OCW tolerant if developed at these temps. It’s important to know at what temperature chrono data was gathered for velocities when doing QL estimates for Reloder. Nothing replaces the tried and true load development methods of sart low, work up. To avoid having two separate loads for the temperature, it is best to get separate guns and keep the load specific respectively for each.

 

[SJB358]

That's awesome info Wyo. enjoyed reading that and it made a ton of sense.

 

[Wyo7200]

.223 Remington 40gr Varmageddon!!!! H335

30*, chrono 3681 fps.
60*, chrono 3740 fps.

Calibrated QL’s 70* burn rate so that it matches the velocities taken at 30* and 60*

10 0.6313 +00.0 93 28.00 3640 1177 45529 6365 94.8 0.995
20 0.6368 +00.0 93 28.00 3659 1189 46310 6383 95.4 0.988
____ Node range____
30 0.6434 +00.0 93 28.00 3682 1204 47256 6403 96.0 0.979 ! Near Maximum !
40 0.649 +00.0 93 28.00 3701 1217 48073 6416 96.4 0.972 ! Near Maximum !
50 0.6557 +00.0 93 28.00 3723 1231 49060 6430 97.0 0.964 ! Near Maximum !
60 0.6625 +00.0 93 28.00 3745 1246 50077 6440 97.4 0.956 ! Near Maximum !
70 0.6682 +00.0 93 28.00 3763 1258 50942 6445 97.8 0.949 ! Near Maximum !
____ Node range____
80 0.6739 +00.0 93 28.00 3780 1269 51817 6449 98.2 0.943 ! Near Maximum !
90 0.6793 +00.0 93 28.00 3796 1280 52648 6450 98.5 0.937 ! Near Maximum !

Median is little under 50* -OBT node .9661 range between 20* and 80*. I don’t think I will shoot prairie rats below 40, so I think I will try 27.6gr @ 70* to span 50* up to 100*.

My initial load work up didn’t like 27.7gr at 30*. It was one of the largest groups of the test actually. However, 27.2gr and 28gr were great. I must have just caught the edge of the node at that temperature and combination. Estimating the load combination at a warmer temp provides very similar velocities at 50 (compared to 30) and 90 (compared to 70). Looking forward to testing this on paper and chronograph after I shoot the rest of the 28gr load.

20 0.6368 0 92 27.6 3609 1157 44188 6304 94.7 1.008
30 0.6434 0 92 27.6 3632 1171 45086 6326 95.3 0.999
40 0.649 0 92 27.6 3651 1184 45858 6343 95.8 0.992
____ Node range____
50 0.6557 0 92 27.6 3673 1198 46795 6359 96.4 0.983
60 0.6625 0 92 27.6 3695 1212 47744 6373 96.9 0.975
70 0.6682 0 92 27.6 3712 1224 48533 6381 97.3 0.969
80 0.6739 0 92 27.6 3733 1238 49535 6389 97.8 0.96
90 0.6793 0 92 27.6 3751 1249 50390 6392 98.1 0.954
____ Node range____
100 0.6879 0 92 27.6 3771 1263 51419 6394 98.5 0.946


R22, 160gr AccuBond. 10* to 50*

10 0.3946 0 91 64.51 2994 3186 48805 12665 99 1.35
20 0.398 0 91 64.51 3009 3217 49653 12660 99.2 1.34
30 0.4021 0 91 64.51 3026 3253 50679 12646 99.5 1.328
40 0.405 0 91 64.51 3038 3278 51418 12632 99.6 1.32
50 0.4098 0 91 64.51 3056 3318 52612 12599 99.8 1.306
____ Node range____
60 0.4141 0 91 64.51 3072 3353 53694 12561 99.9 1.295
70 0.4169 0 91 64.51 3082 3375 54400 12532 100 1.288
80 0.4212 0 91 64.51 3097 3407 55486 12481 100 1.277

I have some time on my hands- if I could be shooting, I would be

 

[Dwh7271]

Well done. That has value.
Kind of puts the facts to temp stability. In some cases it seems the powder companies definition of stable is a bit loose. :grin:
The 4831 numbers weren't really a surprise although some of the others were, at least to the degree of change. Seems like 4831 shoots about the same hot or cold. :grin:

 

[andrewctillman]

Does Quickload have Norma 203-B in its data base?

I wanted to work up a load for the 556, Wylde chamber if available, 1:8 twist, using CBC brass and 77 grain Nosler CC or SMK.

I have had best luck in semi autos with the Remington 7 1/2 primer which is hot but not as hot as the military CCI 450.

The new Norma manual shows it making 2,900 fps from a 16 inch barrel!!!

I am just trying to duplicate CBC ammo velocity which runs 2835 fps from a 20 inch at 50 degrees F or 2870 fps at 65-100 degrees F.

That is plenty hot and faster than I can get with TAC or XBR.

 

[Wyo7200]

yes it does. Heres a quick look:

Cartridge          : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet             : .224, 77, Nosler CC HPBT 22421
Useable Case Capaci: 23.990 grain H2O = 1.558 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm
Powder             : Norma 203B

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   95    20.97   2300     905   38951   9801     88.7    1.046
-09.0   96    21.20   2328     926   40278   9943     89.3    1.029
-08.0   97    21.44   2355     948   41646  10084     89.9    1.013
-07.0   98    21.67   2383     971   43056  10221     90.5    0.997
-06.0   99    21.90   2411     994   44512  10357     91.1    0.982
-05.0  100    22.14   2438    1017   46020  10490     91.7    0.967
-04.0  101    22.37   2466    1040   47582  10621     92.2    0.952
-03.0  102    22.60   2494    1064   49201  10749     92.8    0.937
-02.0  103    22.83   2522    1088   50879  10874     93.3    0.922
-01.0  104    23.07   2550    1112   52618  10996     93.8    0.908
+00.0  105    23.30   2578    1137   54421  11115     94.3    0.894  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0  106    23.53   2606    1161   56291  11230     94.8    0.881  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  107    23.77   2634    1187   58231  11342     95.2    0.867  ! Near Maximum !
+03.0  108    24.00   2663    1212   60244  11451     95.6    0.854  ! Near Maximum !
+04.0  110    24.23   2691    1238   62334  11555     96.0    0.841  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  111    24.47   2719    1264   64504  11656     96.4    0.828  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[andrewctillman]

Thanks for the prompt reply!!!!

Can you run that for a 20 inch?

Usually about 110 fps difference?

I dont know how they got to 2,900 fps!!!!

This looks like Mk262 velocity range which is what I would expect.

 

[Wyo7200]

No problem.

Cartridge          : 5.56 mm NATO - 5.56 x 45 mm
Bullet             : .224, 77, Nosler CC HPBT 22421
Useable Case Capaci: 23.990 grain H2O = 1.558 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.260 inch = 57.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder             : Norma 203B

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   95    20.97   2437    1016   38951   7760     91.4    1.186
-09.0   96    21.20   2465    1039   40278   7860     92.0    1.168
-08.0   97    21.44   2493    1063   41646   7958     92.5    1.150
-07.0   98    21.67   2521    1087   43056   8054     93.0    1.133
-06.0   99    21.90   2549    1111   44512   8148     93.5    1.116
-05.0  100    22.14   2577    1136   46020   8240     94.0    1.099
-04.0  101    22.37   2605    1160   47582   8329     94.5    1.083
-03.0  102    22.60   2633    1186   49201   8416     95.0    1.067
-02.0  103    22.83   2661    1211   50879   8500     95.4    1.051
-01.0  104    23.07   2689    1237   52618   8582     95.8    1.035
+00.0  105    23.30   2717    1262   54421   8660     96.2    1.020  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0  106    23.53   2745    1289   56291   8736     96.6    1.005  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  107    23.77   2773    1315   58231   8809     96.9    0.990  ! Near Maximum !
+03.0  108    24.00   2801    1342   60244   8879     97.3    0.976  ! Near Maximum !
+04.0  110    24.23   2829    1369   62334   8945     97.6    0.961  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  111    24.47   2857    1396   64504   9008     97.9    0.947  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 5% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 5% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    105    23.30   2793    1334   60005   8702     98.4    0.979  ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 5% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    105    23.30   2631    1184   48968   8511     93.0    1.067