Rant

[nitis]

I must admit I frequent this and several other message boards. I also dont really know a whole lot about the inner works of rifles but I know what works for me. I also know that the economy is hurting and everyone is complaining about it. And I also know it is only a drop in the perverbial bucket. So what eats me up is how our so called sportsmen and women keep supporting so much imported stuff, specifically rifles.

Now I know howa and tikka have produced a quality firearm in a desireable pricepoint however savages and remington sps arent far off the point and are of just as good if not better of quality. Now we also hopefully have something to battle those in the same price point(if its not too late) with the TC venture which looks like the tikka and appears to be of good quality.

Its not just rifle though stroll through any basspro or cabelas and pull the tag on some clothing or knife lots of import. I guess it just bugs me that sportsmen who are typically bluecollar type workers very similar to those who produce these firearms and arent helping their brother or sister by buying their product.

Again I know I am not perfect I have scopes that say phillippines and japan somethings are almost impossible to avoid. However the only foreign made firearm in my safe is a beretta 391 and it is probably going down the road just because I dont use it.

Please no one take it personal I just had to vent a little. I am not asking you to dump your tikka or howa or whatever just stop for a second and think next time you are out looking for a new rifle, knife or anything for your hunting or shooting needs.

Nitis

 

[Guest]

Savage and Leupold

 

[JD338]

nitis

I hear ya buddy. The fact is that if you buy a toaster, you spend $35.00 because its made in China. If it were made in the US, it would be $75 and no one would but them because they are too expensive.

Its the world we live in. I try to buy US but its tough to do.

There are still plenty of US made shooting products and that is what I buy.
I love my Remington guns and Leupold optics. In fact, I just bought a Leupold Golden Ring Spotting Scope. This scope is awesome.

JD338

 

[Guest]

And leupold isn't expensive. ????? Greed.

 

[nitis]

I hope I am not a hypocrite but Leupold is begining to price me out of their market I wish they wouldnt. Oh well at least I am trying to stay away from red china

 

[Greg Nolan]

Reality is;
When the United states was the new upcomming country we became prosperous becouse of what we could produce. We were the worlds best innovator and provider. With affluence comes decay. With affluence comes compassion and subsistance (wellfare). Once it starts it grows untill the workers can no longer support the non workers. The taxes cause the workers to have to get the cheapest prices on what they buy because they have no spare income. WE ARE THERE!
Just as other nations bought our products we now buy the upcomming nations products. It's kind of like growing old. It just happens.
I try to buy American on the big items. Car, guns and appliances.
The fact is that not much is made here anymore. The iron and glass and auto industry is now provided by or assembled elsewhere.
How do we combat this?
Lower our standard of living or income? How?

 

[JD338]

Greg,

You are spot on buddy, as usual! :grin:

JD338

 

[nitis]

You all make great points and on somewhat of a larger scale than I was looking. I guess I am just tired of "that Guy" with his tikka bragging on how good it is. when my remington is just as good and I helped put bread on someones table.

 

[DrMike]

nitis,

I'm actually synpathetic to your position, but Greg has nailed the issue quite accurately. Bear in mind that handling the Tikka or the Howa means that some individuals have managed to share the wealth here in North America. There were brokers who had a job and the import business that handled the rifles provided work for Americans. Whilst they are not labourers, they are still tax payers and blue collar workers. I do make every effort to avoid buying goods that are not manufactured in North America, but it is very difficult. I am adamantly opposed to buying
Chinese if there is any other option.

 

[FOTIS]

Savage and Leupold

HOOO-YAH!

 

[old #7]

The Americam worker is not who he used to be. Not even close.
Most of the younger generations want government hand outs and are willing to go to work only if it means "getting rich".
Where did our national pride go? Our products used to be the best in the world.
Manufacturing jobs are leaving this country at a staggering rate due to high employment costs(unions), high taxes, bogus liability lawsuits, and now more than ever government regulations. Lets not forget our education system doesn't make it into the top ten.

The hardest part of being number one is staying number one. We haven't been working hard with pride for a while.

 

[Richracer1]

And leupold isn't expensive. ????? Greed.

When compared to some of the European scopes, not even close. I'm also a Leupold fan. If you buy optics that are cheap, well guess what, they are made with cheap/inferior materials.

 

[FOTIS]

And leupold isn't expensive. ????? Greed.

Not compared to some others. Swarovski and some others. You get what you pay for.

 

[bullet]

That is why I own Ruger rifles, pistols, revolvers and all but one of my rifles are Rugers. Good product, fair price and I have proved on this forum how accurate they are and American design and made.

 

[TScottW99]

I guess it just bugs me that sportsmen who are typically bluecollar type workers very similar to those who produce these firearms and arent helping their brother or sister by buying their product.

On the other hand, it always bugs me that those "blue collar workers" who belong to unions and raise the price of the firearms so high companies go under. On top of that the unions pretty much demand those same workers vote for people like Obama and Pelosi who want us to loose our firearms.

I do try to buy American when ever I can but sometimes I do not. My gun dealer still makes money on a Glock or a Benelli if I buy it from him. Sometimes he even makes more if I buy a Glock versus a Remington.

I just started buying Ruger again. Ol' Bill ran me off back in the 80's when he became as bad as Sarah Brady. Thankfully the company is starting to turn back to the customers.

S&W has lost any of my business if there is a key hole in the sideplate. Lukily I can still buy good used S&W, Thompson Center luckily does not have the ugly lock and since I am a LEO I can buy the Semi's without the stupid lock. However if that to changes I will stop buying all together.

 

[cloverleaf]

Savage and Leuy..even thogh the steel is imported and the lenses a re ground in the pacific some where. I agrre with most of whats been said here. We are one of the biffest consiming cultures in the history of the world. and we dont want to pay for it . Fact is there prbably arent enough resources in the continnetal US to provide all the product we use even if we could do it for free. CL

 

[roysclockgun]

There are no simplistic answers to complicated questions.
Remington, Savage and other American made products are better today, than they were when they had a virtual lock on the market, because they were forced to get better as a direct result of foreign competition!
Could Winchester, Remington, Savage and other American arms manufacturers, have built better more accurate firearms in the 1950s? You bet they could have, but they were not pushed by competition to do so. Same goes for the American auto industry. Hey, things were going great! Americans could not wait to pay the 36th payment on their Desoto car, so that they could "trade in old Betsy" for the new piece of Detroit iron! What commonly known, production hunting rifle, made in the USA in the 1950s, would produce 100 yard groups, inside 1", off the shelf? None that I remember. Hunters, for the most part, got the rifle out the week before the season, ran five rounds through her, at the range. And if they put all five in a six inch pie plate at 100 yards, they were ready to get that buck deer!
Had not things changed, on a world market basis, we'd still be buying those same firearms, producing mediocre accuracy and only the small fraternity of range rats would be having their rifles tweaked up to more esoteric accuracy.
The folks who began to import and market Tikka, Howa and Honda cars, KNEW that the only way to make inroads and shoulder their way into shelf space, was to produce better, more durable, more accurate, more quality, more user friendly.....and, it worked. The foreign products did not grab shelf space simply because they came in cheaper! They grabbed shelf space because they came up with a "better mouse trap", AND at reasonable prices!
By the time the American manufacturerers woke up, the barn door had been open for a long time and the horse had run away!
American arms makers and car makers had to play catch-up and try to woo back the American buyer, in a climate that was more and more based on a world market! How many American buyers under 40 even care? Foreign products and outsourcing by American manufacturerers, are here to stay. Buy Remington, but realize that Tikka and Howa will likely be on the cutting edge of what makes a better rifle for the future, before Remington even knows that a better rifle can be made. In Oct. '08, I bought a new '09 Mustang and I love the car, but I know that if Honda had made it, it would be a much better vehicle. At age 67, I want to support the American worker, but on a pragmatic basis, I realize that I am fighting a losing battle.
Steven

 

[bullet]

I do not consider Tikka a real quality product after owning two in 7mm Rem mag. I do not like the weak bolt design nor their fit and finish of the bolt and reciver. Neither rifle although accurate ever out shot my Savage 116FS, Weatherby Mark V 30-06 or my Ruger Hawkeye 358Win, or my Rem Sendero in 7mmRem mag and I think I know how to load for and shoot small groups. I don't like Tikka and that is my rant for this thread.

 

[Powerstroke]

Old#7 Couldn't have said it better in my opinion......

I bleed Ford Blue & Remington Green.... with that said one of my last purchases was a Rem 700 .257 Bee Stainless Synthetic.
Now granted it shoots just like every other Remington I own - darn good right out of the box. The finish / final product however is garbage in my opinion.... Where is the " individual " PRIDE? in the worker these days ?
The "F" & "S" for the safety are stamped on the action crooked... the overall finish / appearance is not consistant. ( I know, if I didn't like it, why'd I buy it )? I don't see that being the point here.

Bring back the pride in our work !

 

[roysclockgun]

Powerstroke wrote: ..." Where is the " individual " PRIDE? in the worker these days ?"

I am not convinced that true "PRIDE" in the workplace was not always dependent upon the fact that "quality" was demanded from the worker, by his immediate superiors. This, in terms of assembly line quality, which is handled and viewed in a much different light than is workmanship in a small manufacturing shop, where the worker's name goes onto the product. Paul Revere signed his copperware. Joe Blow, who bolted on Chevy bumpers, did not sign his work. Blow wanted to keep his well paying job and knew that the quality of what he was doing was being closely watched and that kept him on the ball. By the 1950s, the pendulum, regarding the reasons why the US needed unions, had already swung in the wrong direction, and union bosses were encouraging American workers to produce less for more hourly wages!
Post '64 Winchesters were, quality-wise, junk. Post family owned Harley Davidsons, built under AMF, suffered from poor quality.
Even in the good old days, if the American worker was not judiciously encouraged to show pride in his work, or watched over very carefully by his immediate management, he did not show pride, nor did he make any efforts to do more than put in his eight hours a day, for eight hours pay. The concept of workers somehow being more morally strong in the good old days, is for the most part, a myth!
In the old days, quality goods were turned out by much smaller shops, in which the worker had a real stake. Or, in Henry Ford's factories, quality was turned out, because Ford paid well, but demanded good work! Ford paid $5/day in a time where many people worked for $1/day. However, he regularly had people fired for failing to put in their best, as noted by "pushers" on the assembly line floor! Ford's theory was; pay them well and then get the maximum sweat from them.
I wager that the quality we see in foreign goods, to include firearms, is in the main, based on quality control demanded from the top down. The worker, unless given a stake in profits, simply wants to put in his hours per day and take his money. This, whether he be Chinese, Japanese, Finn or American.
The Winchester rifles of pre-WWII days were made so well, because Winchester management knew that they needed to produce a quality product, in order to beat out Remington and Browning. At the time that the Winchester M12 Pump was considered one of the best shotguns in the world, Browning had the A5 semi-auto (then made by FN in Belgium) and Remington had their fine M31 Pump. Today, given equal condition, I would pick up any of the three, from those older times, and be happy. That said, I believe that the quality from all three was based more on the manufacturerer's demands on the worker and less on the individual worker's desire to turn out a quality product, because he had individual pride in what he did. Certainly to a lessor extent, the worker's pride helped turn out fine goods, to include firearms, but that was not the primary reason for why he showed up for work!
Steven