Rant

[Powerstroke]

Roy,

Well said.... we all need to be able to put food on the table..... but to where all this now days is turning to is the belief that " we / I deserve " it.

I don't believe we deserve anything... yes, put a good honest eight hours in and work for it....
I've always thought it has felt better to "earn" it rather than be given??

I completely understand what you are saying however as I've spent the last 15 or so years in the auto industry.

 

[roysclockgun]

Powerstroke, thank you for the kind words.
IMO, I believe that the American worker, still is, or can be the finest producer in the world and second to none. That said, when the perceived loyalty went away, the fine workmanship soon followed. Again, no simplistic answers.
When I graduated from Baltimore Polytechnic Institute in 1961, I clearly remember others in my grad. class who remarked to me that their Dad's had gotten them on at Beth. Steel, Sparrow's Point Plant, just outside of Baltimore. At that point, they KNEW that they were set with a good job for LIFE!! WRONG! At that point in time, the unions were very strong. A "strike" at Beth. Steel in 1958 practically closed Baltimore business down!
A number of things happened to rob Beth. Steel workers of their security. First the Post War Marshall Plan rebuilt Japan using cutting edge technology to include very modern steel operations that made Beth. Steel Baltimore look like the dark ages. Two, steel making for a number of reasons, became more profitable when carried on in places other than the USA! Three, union leaders continued to be myopic in demanding more for less. Four, the union workers were not going to upset what they viewed as their "due", as long as they had two cars and boat in their garage! This spelled disaster for the American worker, who did not wake up until his job was taken by a man in Asia! If reversed, which I doubt, the reversal would take generations to accomplish.
Once big business decided that they could get non-union workers to produce in a way that fattened their bottom line, it is a no-brainer to figure out that they will move in that direction and the American worker be damned! Today "American Standard" toilets are made in Mexico. Huge manufacturing plants are lined up along the northern Mexican border with the US, producing goods for US consumption and all without OSHA. Mexican workers, many of whom speak only Indian dialects, are brought to the border factories and worked as slaves and in other ways, preyed upon. These conditions could never exists openly inside CONUS, but across that piddly little stream that we call the Rio Grande, any sort of abuses can go on, subjugating the worker and "who cares" as long as the bottom line is fattened! The American worker, even if he is willing to work at 1/4 of his current pay, cannot compete against such competition.
The world markets go from highly skilled workers, turning out superior goods, to entry level, repetitive labor, performed by enslaved children and convicts and no one really cares, as long as prices are competitive or better and the bottom line looks good.
On Topic for this list: I just bought a product from E. Brown, which I am assuming is American made. The price was right and from all reports, I can expect good quality, but Brown's niche is currently very small and who knows if he will survive the current economic whip lashing, or not. Why did I buy the E. Brown product? Because I am still trying to buy American and because I believe that through pride or pressure, E. Brown is cranking out a finely made firearm that I can expect to be accurate. The market for single shot rifles cannot be very large, when compared to magazine rifles. For that reason, perhaps Brown has found a niche that can keep a small shop going.
Other small shops in the US create specialized custom or semi-custom magazine rifles that appear to sell enough to keep them going.
Browning and Winchester are both owned by the same foreign interest. Right? I do not know who owns Remington and Savage, but foreign monies invested in those two companies would not surprise me.
Beretta is made in Va. Right? However, Beretta is owned by an Italian firm. This all is part and parcel of globalization. We can, all of us who are interested in doing so, support the American worker, but the path that leads us along in doing so, is tricky and filled with hazards.
Is there foreign money invested in E. Brown's small operation? I would not be surprised to hear that it is.
As the world shrinks more and more, figuring out what our grandchildren should get into, in order to generate the cash that they will need to live, is a daunting task. Daunting indeed.
We cannot simply continue to sell each other insurance and expect to maintain the American dream.
Steven

 

[old #7]

roysclockgum wrote:

The worker, unless given a stake in profits, simply wants to put in his hours per day and take his money.

Where was the worker at the time of initial investment into the company. Does the worker put in 16 hour days working on the floor and in the office at night? Does the worker assume any risk if the company has a bad month or two? Will he dig into his pocket in a time of need. Does the worker show understanding if the company can't give out a bonus due to a bad quarter?
Not in my experience.
Most people have no idea what it takes to run a business and the countless hours and dollars it takes to get it from idea to reality before you make a penny.


Don't get me wrong, I pay my employees well and treat them with respect. They in turn, produce a quality product for the customer. I tell my guys that their work is what the customer see's and is buying. Their job security is directly related to the work they do.

The American worker not only needs to take pride in what he does but also in the products he makes and in the company he works for.

 

[roysclockgun]

old #7 wrote: "Their job security is directly related to the work they do."

old #7 as I wrote, "no simple answers to complicated questions". I can sing your song better than I can sing the worker's song, since I have not received a salary since Feb. 1964 when I left the US Army! <8^)) I generated cash in commission positions, where my raise only became effective after I became more effective in my position. For the final 27 years of my generating cash, I ran my own small business. That said, if you really believe your one statement, copied above, than you are either being disengenuous or are oblivious to what has gone on in the USA, since hostile take-overs began! The "work they do" had nothing to do with the reasons for letting thousands of them go, and more to do with streamlining a taken over company, so that it could be dismembered and sold off, in order to line the corporate pirate's pockets. Workers, who for years had served what they thought was going to be company returned loyalty, were left out in the cold, wondering what happened! Sadly, some, who for too long remained blind to the changes, committed suicide.
My part of this discussion had little or nothing to do with how much sweat, blood, tears and bucks it takes to start up and run a business, but more to do with the original question, concerning why Americans buy foreign produced firearms!
old #7, I am far more on your side, than I am on the side of union workers, who at the end, believed that they were still living in 1955 when in fact, 1955 died in 1945!
The country was built on entreprenuial chance taking. However, we cannot forget the fact that a lot of salaried workers did much of the muscle labor and for a time, they expected and received some loyalty from the robber barons who ponied up the original seed money to get the company started.
My analogy of Henry Ford still holds water. Henry, with the genius that he possessed, had built Ford. Henry figured out that if he offered $5/day, he could not only get good, hard working people to flock to Ford, but he could demand and get fanastic perfomance from those workers....and, he did. Henry did all that in a day where nothing was out-sourced to a foreign country and without convict labor and far as I know, without slave labor. Today, with out sourcing all of those cost saving measures are available to Ford and everyone else who manufacture goods.
Certainly even old Henry recognized that he must instill loyalty in his workers and continue to pay them at the top of the going rate, if he was to keep good people, even though his workers did not put a cent into his original start up piggy bank.
Steven

 

[old #7]

I believe the work "they" do reflects directly on the company.
Consumers want the best possible quality for the money. I see alot of people that refuse to work hard to make good money. They want to make the money first and then if they feel like it they will put in an honest day.

I guess Henery Ford and I have alot in common.
I pay my guys good and expect good work. We (my guys and I) have built a reputation of high quality, saftey and production.
Speaking of Ford..... They had enough pride in their company to try to solve their financial problems themselves. They didn't just give up, file bankrupcy and get bailed out by the tax payer.
I have been a Chevy man for years. My wife wanted to get a new vehical... I told her no GM and no Chrystler.
They have enough of my money already.
My next pick up will be a Ford.

 

[jtoews80]

As far as guns, in Canada we are not able to buy some North American products. We do have Dlask Arms in Ontario that is currently producing AR's, and they are a fine product, but expensive. Other items are knocked off and not restricted from CHina like the M14, but the NA made one is Prohibited and not legal to fire off a range and you can't get a permit to take it to the range

Cars, well it'll be Ford. My 05 F350 is a pile of feces, but it'll be a ford again because they are not state owned.

JT.

 

[DrMike]

Cars, well it'll be Ford. My 05 F350 is a pile of feces, but it'll be a ford again because they are not state owned.

+1 and +1 again!

 

[Oldtrader3]

It is even a little more complicated than that. Remington is owned by Cerebrus, the same company that owns Chrysler. Cerebrus is Canadian owned primarily.

The other option is Winchester/Browning. Winchesters are made in South Carolina. However, Browning is owned by Fabrique National, Hestal, Belgium. The workers that make Winchesters and Brownings may be American but the proifits go overseas. Even Marlin is now owned by Cerebrus.

 

[Guest]

You could always buy a Weatherby Mark V. Made in Minnesota, and corporately HQ'd in Paso Robles, CA. Unless you buy a Vanguard, which is made in Japan, you're totally supporting US workers and ownership. I can't speak for where the raw materials come from, though.

 

[YoteSmoker]

Another country involved with Browning/FN....My Browning Buckmark (I think all buckmarks) was made in Montreal, Canada, so I'm not even sure if it was imported to Morgan, Utah.

 

[longwinters]

A person has to be careful in making generalizations. Not ALL union workers voted for Dems. Not all unions are greedy and dishonest. And to generalize and blame unions for the ills of our economy is .....well I won't say what it is.

There were plenty of Republicans that shot themselves in the foot with favoring the rich and making the middle class pay for this country. Lots of the "good old boys" taking care of themselves. Actually without unions there would be no middle class standard. Just the rich and the rest of us. The company I work for axed all raises for the non-union workers and they lost a years vacation. All that is except for the exects who still got their bonus' and raises. If our union did not have a contract we would have gotten the same treatment.

Back 40 years ago the executive made aprox 16 dollars for every dollar the regular worker made. Now it is over 10 times that....so tell me where some of the problems might be.

Like I said, generalizations don't solve anything except they do show the ignorance of un-objective people.

Long

 

[old #7]

Just goes to show there are two sides to every coin.