Recoil Intolerance..what gives?

[c. schutte]

I think it still boils down to what it has always boiled down to...................... Use the cartridge you can handle and put the bullet in the right place. Obviously a bullet designed to handle the job.

One point that has been mentioned several times I think really hits home with this thread; that is there are so many young people arming themselves with way too much gun to start with. I see this every time I visit a public range. Instead of starting out with something small like a bb or an air gun on very small game and moving up to mild recoiling cartridges, they go buy something that looks cool and start blasting away like they do on video games.

Almost all of them were never taught by their dad's on how to use, shoot, care for and respect firearms. Just a bunch of Rambo wannabees.

 

[truck driver]

Hey Jamila
Can I borrow your shoulder when or if I should get a chance to shoot a 450-400? LoL I have shot a 10ga 2 1/2oz loads but not something I would want to do very often. -)

 

[Europe]

exactly Charles, which brings us back to the post Dr Mike made. We have too many "absent" fathers these days. Dr Mikes post, which others forum members have agreed with, is important in more ways that learning how to handle recoil from a rifle.

Jamila brings up a point that everyone here knows, but not everyone who picks up a rifle and goes to the range knows. Rifle fit can make a difference in "felt" recoil

Now I admit, like Dr Mike, I am past old and boarding on ancient, but I am a strong believer that some of the problem is, and not just with rifle recoil, things like "The Crying Room" they recently introduced in some college in the United States. Yeah, that will prepare young adults for the stress of living life in the real world. I can still hear my parents when I ran into some difficulties when growing up and they have been gone for years. "You need to "man up" it isn't going to get any easier when you get out there on your own"

"Recoil" from a rifle or life is not always easy, but if you were taught properly and are using the right tools, it will be easier to handle

 

[truck driver]

exactly Charles, which brings us back to the post Dr Mike made. We have too many "absent" fathers these days. Dr Mikes post, which others forum members have agreed with, is important in more ways that learning how to handle recoil from a rifle.

Jamila brings up a point that everyone here knows, but not everyone who picks up a rifle and goes to the range knows. Rifle fit can make a difference in "felt" recoil

Now I admit, like Dr Mike, I am past old and boarding on ancient, but I am a strong believer that some of the problem is, and not just with rifle recoil, things like "The Crying Room" they recently introduced in some college in the United States. Yeah, that will prepare young adults for the stress of living life in the real world. I can still hear my parents when I ran into some difficulties when growing up and they have been gone for years. "You need to "man up" it isn't going to get any easier when you get out there on your own"

"Recoil" from a rifle or life is not always easy, but if you were taught properly and are using the right tools, it will be easier to handle

I agree wholeheartedly ( pun intended ).
Most of the kids today can't make it on their own that's why they're still living at home at age 40 and married or have a girlfriend living with them while their parents foot the expenses. >(

 

[DrMike]

Good to see you posting, April. Feisty as ever, I see. That is encouraging. Keep on keeping on!

 

[Africa Huntress]

Hey Jamila
Can I borrow your shoulder when or if I should get a chance to shoot a 450-400? LoL I have shot a 10ga 2 1/2oz loads but not something I would want to do very often. -)

Rodger, I need a Crying Room Ha

seriously, the rifle has a recoil pad, it is heavy, it was made to fit me, it is always used either standing or kneeling, and when one of the dangerous game animals decides they dont like you, recoil is the last thing your thinking about. Haha

Also Rodger, it is not like using a shotgun on a bird hunt , like your ten gauge, or a rifle at a range. You touch off a couple of shots to make sure it is shooting where it is suppose to and them maybe you shoot two more shots during a hunt, not much shooting involved.

Best Regards

Jamila

 

[Cleveland48]

I used to love shooting the big calibers when I was a teenager, but I’ve used only the different 6.5 cartridges since 2008. I just really don’t like getting my head rattled when I pull the trigger now. I still like shooting my brothers old model 70 in 375 H&H which really isn’t that bad since the rifle is pretty heavy. My 9.3x62 with 286 gr bullet at 2500 fps in a 7lb rifle give me all the recoil I want these days lol. About 15-20 rounds in a session is all I can tolerate now haha. The 260, 6.5 CM, and 6.5x55 you can shoot all day and go home not even sore. I still enjoy shooting the big medium bores like 35 and 9.3, even the 375, but honestly that’s about my limit.


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[Anonymous]

Some interesting replies to this thread. As an observation- perhaps it's the application of "shooting rifles" in hunting rather than "hunting rifles" in shooting. That may be nonsensical (hey, it's still early here).

It seems a lot of folks are taking "shooting rifles"- rifles that are very accurate, low recoil, and easy to shoot- and pursuing all sorts of big game with them. Nothing really wrong with that since hitting the animal in the right spot is the chiefest problem we tend to have. The 6mm and 6.5s have plenty of steam for deer and modern bullets have made them even better.

Most of the folks I'm conversing with on another forum are pretty savvy shooters and certainly not newbs, typically 20-30ish somethings. They are "shooting tech" acolytes and they have no reservation about shooting an elk at long ranges with a .243 or 6.5CM- in fact, it's the preferred cartridge class by a sizable margin.

While I shoot my 6.5 far better than I can shoot my .300...when moose or a bear is on the menu, I still have a hard time thinking it's my better choice.

I've got to admit, the ditch on the other side of the road is just as bad and much more prevalent in my generation. The magnum craze convinced a whole bunch of guys that they had no business chasing E. Coast whitetails with any thing smaller than a .300WM and if you wanted to hunt the West, it was time to break out the heavy stuff. I've seen a whole pile of guys at the range blasting away with all sorts of big, belted cartridges that clamped their eyes tightly shut before giving the trigger a nice hard yank. They were in no better position to kill big critters than the current crop of small bore, extreme range shooters, and maybe worse off.

I've got to admit, perhaps the entire thing is generated by marketing rather than field requirements and I'm now old enough to have seen several trends shift hunting rifle interest in vastly different directions. Since I've shot quite a few animals with several different cartridges and they all seemed to work, I'm finding the marketing science behind the hunting and shooting business more fascinating than the actual technical minutiae they're hawking.

Selling a product that has a useful life of several generations must be tough work indeed!

 

[Europe]

Damn, hodgeman, you should run for Governor of Alaska, maybe even President of the U.S., that was a very smooth post

Dr Mike, thank you kind sir. All the news was not good, but I am determined to live every second of my life to the fullest. I have been playing Tim's song "live like you were dying" a lot lol

 

[Anonymous]

Damn, hodgeman, you should run for Governor of Alaska, maybe even President of the U.S., /quote]

:shock:

I'm pretty sure neither of those folks have much time for hunting or fishing!

 

[IdahoCTD]

If they don't make time for hunting or fishing the definitely picked the wrong job. :mrgreen:

 

[truck driver]

Hey Jamila
Can I borrow your shoulder when or if I should get a chance to shoot a 450-400? LoL I have shot a 10ga 2 1/2oz loads but not something I would want to do very often. -)

Rodger, I need a Crying Room Ha

seriously, the rifle has a recoil pad, it is heavy, it was made to fit me, it is always used either standing or kneeling, and when one of the dangerous game animals decides they dont like you, recoil is the last thing your thinking about. Haha

Also Rodger, it is not like using a shotgun on a bird hunt , like your ten gauge, or a rifle at a range. You touch off a couple of shots to make sure it is shooting where it is suppose to and them maybe you shoot two more shots during a hunt, not much shooting involved.

Best Regards

Jamila

Come to think about it the shotgun probably kicks harder than your rifle since it only kicks you once where a shotgun will kick you multiple times when shooting a choked barrel. Every time the shot charge passes threw a constricted place in the barrel you get nailed.
A Remington 3" mag M1100 is the only gun I have shot that actually bloodied my shoulder.
Scared my wife so bad she screamed thinking I had shot myself. Beat the blood threw a t shirt I was wearing.
I was testing reloads for patterns before hunting turkeys. Took me two days to get the full use of my shoulder again.

 

[Europe]

Rodger, it does for sure. your ten gauge is more comparable, recoil wise, with the 458 win, maybe even the Lott----plus, if your lucky while bird hinting you fire it several times in a day, as Jamila mentioned one might fire the big boomer rifle two or three times a day.

Idahoctd and Hodgeman--excellent point! I have to be honest, you could not pay me enough to get me to be President of the U.S.. It is a game of "gotcha:" between parties, and the media. Watch just one of the daily briefings. Sarah Sanders has a LOT more patience than I would have with some of those reporters and IMHO the shameful way the host of the WHCO dinner preformed. Thanks but no thanks, I will go hunting and fishing with Hodgeman and IdahoCTD, even Salmonchaser if he will let me in his camp

Oh, and in regards to recoil. I dont like it

 

[salmonchaser]

April
I can't think of anyone I'd rather have in camp. It would be fun.


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[Guy Miner]

Recoil happens. It's a price paid for power.

I love shooting my 22 rimfire rifles and my small bore center fire rifles.

I also enjoy shooting the harder-kicking rifles, I just cut down on the number of rounds fired. Most powerful I've got is of course the 375 H&H. That cartridge is a real peach to shoot, no problem at all.

My 45/70 Marlin with STOUT handloads was quite a handful. Lots of power in a fairly light rifle, with a stock designed with a fair bit of drop...

Have shot .458 Win Mag & .450 Ackley rifles. Yup, I noticed the recoil from them alright! :mrgreen: But they shot quite well.

Then there's the .50 BMG, which in a rifle platform is amazing. With a good muzzle brake those things are easy to shoot too.

Recoil. No Recoil. Somewhere in between. Only really matters to me if I'm contemplating shooting a lot of ammo. I don't want to go through three or four boxes from a .458 Win mag. Nope, not at all. But a 100+ round training session with the .308 Win? Sure! Let's go!

Regards, Guy

 

[truck driver]

This post is bringing back old memories.
While in basic training at the rifle range we had a lot of city kids who had never shot a gun and the M14 was scaring them $#&@ less. The DI took one of them held the rifle to his crotch and touched it off. You could have bought the kid for two cents. I laughed my butt off and had to drop and do twenty. The kid was unharmed and lost his fear.
As for the 10ga I found there wasn't any birds that I couldn't kill with the 12ga and sold it.
Another funny experience was with the lowly .22lr. Having a discussion about recoil I told a friend that it also had felt recoil and he called me out on it. I told him to hold the butt to his nose and touch it off. Boy did he get a rude awakening. Both tears and snot ran, he also cussed me and said he wouldn't do that again. LOL

 

[Blkram]

Looks like the spectrum of experience and sage advice in this thread is well represented and shared!
For those reading this thread that may not have any experience with recoil or shooting various larger calibers would be well advised to take the comments above to heart.

I too, admit that I am not a fan of recoil. Yes I have shot some of the boomers such as the 375 H&H AI, 458 Win Mag, 416 Rigby, 450/500 3 1/4" NE, 510 Wells, and 460 Wby. Does ot mean that I enjoyed shooting them all. But a shooter looking for experience should shoot some of the rifles/cartridges just to learn first hand what real recoil is and how to handle it. It is quite an experience. While I have learned that I can shoot these and hit what I am aiming at, does not mean that I want one of these, or to hunt with them. It did teach me that when I did go looking for medium bores, I chose to build rifles in 376 Steyr and 416 Taylor. I could get similar performance to the 375 H&H and 416 Rigby, with less felt recoil, to use on hunting animals here in North America such as grizzly bear and bison (in the event I never get to hunt the Big 5 in Africa), but still be practiced and experienced with my firearms and their recoil for when the opportunity arises for Africa.

And there is the real key mentioned above (and written about in the latest edition of Sports Afield):
The need to practice with whatever firearm/cartridge combination you plan on using for any hunt, on any game, no matter where in the world that adventure may take place.

There is NO Replacement for Experience. Only practice and use will prepare the mind, body, muscle memory and mental capacity to use your chosen firearm/cartridge combination properly in any given situation that may arise in the field! This is an acquired skill; no one is born with it.

Use the right tool for the job! There is wisdoms in the old addage "Use enough gun". This came from experience, not bravado.
Only experienced hunters/shooters should be using marginal (smaller) calibers/cartridges on big game animals, and only under very specific circumstances, such as unwary/unalarmed animals within reasonable shooting distances and controlled circumstances. No hoping here, you must know and be confident in the ability to make a clean ethical harvest!

Too many of the lomg range crowd and new shooters who have never shot a big animal let alone skinned and cleaned, so as to learn the animals' anatomy, are using smaller calibers/cartridges to shoot at animals, who have never even hunted before, and only have experience on paper or steel targets that do not move. And they want to brag about how far they shot; not brag about how good of a hunter they are and the skill they had to learn and acquire to get close enough to their quarry to make a clean, ethical harvest by reducing the margin of error and variables that could lead to wounded and lost animals.

Sorry to rant, but I was taught that practice (quality of practice is most important), with smaller cartridges/less recoil is great, but one must still practice to learn to be capable of handling the larger cartridges equally well, if one wants to use them in the field.

There is equipment (muzzle brakes and recoil reducers) that work and aid in shooting larger cartridges, but if you cannot use it properly, drop down to one that you are capable of shooting well and learn to use better hunting techniques to get you closer to your quarry so that you do not need power and recoil you cannot use well.

The toughest part for any shooter/hunter here is to learn to be honest with themselves!

You will gain and garner greater respect not only from yourself, but from your guide/PH, family, friends and other shooters with more experience!

 

[longrangehunter]

There's still the amount of Energy required to properly have an effective means to the end of whatever the bullet is impacting, or what it may strike along the way to the vitals, and do it with enough authority to cleanly dispatch an animal.

Whether or not too much, or too little is the "Gray Area" depending on whom, or what is the question. I'd still think better shot placement supersedes bigger is better though.

I just got done shooting a two day National NRL Match. I shot 173 rounds not including the 20 I used to check my zero, and dope the day before, and another 12 today to check it again. I don't think I'd feel so well had they been from a large caliber weapon!

I'm now using a 6mm Creedmoor w/ a 115 DTAC RBT that will ballistically run pretty close to a 300 Norma Magnum as far as bullet drop, and wind defection goes w/a Berger 230 Hybrid, and both going the same speed at the muzzle. Sure the big 300 NM has 1 Mil less drop at 1,200 yards then the little 6mm CM (8.8 vs 9.8 @ 1,200 yards).

But the 6mm Creedmoor does it with less than half of the gun powder, and with far less recoil, and at a lower cost per shot. Does one need a special bullet....... those are both very sleek bullets considering the 230 Berger Hybrid has a BC of .743 and yet the little 6mm/.243 115 DTAC has a BC of .620 which is why there's a 1 Mil difference at 1,200 yards.

So I guess does less equal more, depends, but the more you shoot I'd bet the better shot you'd become when the need for something really big is needed for hunting. I would never use anything that wasn't enough gun, and the proper type hunting bullet for the right job which is better then I guess bragging rights how far away some guys take Big Game animals.

Years ago I only had my 30-06 in my hand but was smart enough to always load the first round with a 200 gr. Norma Oryx and the rest in the magazine where all 220 FMJ Woodleigh's when helping the PH and a client while hunting. The Buff was soaking up a lot of rounds from a 375 H&H, and a 416 Rigby but that's not what brought it down......... Nope, a well placed 30 cal. 220 FMJ to the upper bridge of the nose between the eyes and his boss did and that was by no accident!

Could I have done that with a Double 470 NE, more then likely but that gun belonged to another PH. Truth is he wasn't that great of a shot with that gun, and I think he knew that after letting me shoot it! The moral of this all is confidence built on experience, muscle memory and having faith in what's in your hands regardless of mass or size vs precision.

I'm not saying take on Pachyderm's with a 7x57 Mauser either, or our 30-06, but those guys that did show up with their brand new 460 Wby's most PH's hated to see those in camp for a reason, and it wasn't the guns fault. That said I for one wouldn't want to shoot one either! IMO any 500 gr. slug going over 2,350 fps is a lot to handle, let alone at a brisk speed of 2,600-2,700 fps.

I'd only say it's better to hit what you aim at vs miss with something too big because you can't? It's kinda like those big huge trucks that spend most of their life running down a paved Highway, and rarely towing anything... by themselves usually, and when a little car would get them from point A to B with less fuel, and more money in their pockets....... But hey, stuff like that sells!

 

[Guy Miner]

I've been having a tough time helping one of my friends with his rifle woes. Here's the picture:

He's a leathery tough, 80 year old retired carpenter and active cyclist. With that kind of body. There's not much to him anymore except skin, bones and a little tough endurance-type muscle. No "padding." He is quite the cyclist though, and will go 80+ miles anytime, no problem, and frankly I can't hang on when he decides to bump up the pace. He is physically tough.

He told me that his 30-06 was kicking too much for him. Dang, I tired all sorts of stuff, let him shoot my 700 CDL's with their cushy recoil pads, in both 30-06 & 25-06, he said he couldn't tell the difference between the recoil of those two rifles and they were both too sharp. That amazed me 'cause that 25-06 is a real soft kicking rifle in my opinion.

Finally he bought a 7mm-08, and guess what? Yup, it kicks too much too! Dang. Cushy recoil pad & muzzle brake too. Well heck.

He wants another elk hunt, before hanging it all up, and I'm just not sure we're going to get to the point where his rifle doesn't hurt him. Phooey.

Oh and tough? I mentioned that? We were messing with the rifles at the range one day and he said "Hey, what's that one with the pretty wood?" Well it was my 375 H&H. "Oh, hey I'd like to try that!" :shock: So he did. And he shot it well for about three shots, then handed it back. It's not that he can't do this stuff, it just hurts him. Again though the 375 surprised me, with that "big push." No, I didn't recommend he go get a 375! :grin:

Guy

 

[elkeater2]

Guy, maybe he needs to look at the recoil absorbing personal gear that is worn, rather than what goes on the rifle. I have zero experience, but have read some good results. There may have been some discussion on here even. The PAST brand is talked about and the major suppliers have other items too. Your friend sounds like my kamikaze biking sister, who pedals up and down 3,500 foot elevation changes like they're nothing!
EE2