Reloading Fact or Falicy

[338winmag]

Fact or Falicy

A Master Gunsmith states he can tell whether a rifle will be an accurate shooter or not with no more than 2-3 custom load tests. Along with that insight, he can tell you what your optimum accuracy load is for that rifle in that same 2-3 custom load firing test.

 

[Elkman]

I Will go with fiction. but will see what others smarter than me say !!!!

I kind of doubt it but I am not a gunsmith just an old worn out hunter. I have seen a "couple" of rifles that shot very well with the very first load that I shot in them but not "every" one. I still have both of those and have twiked the loads slightly over the years.

 

[338winmag]

Yeah my thinking is there are a lot of thousands (even in groups of 5 or 10) for bullet seating depth alone.
Type of bullet
Type of powder
Type of primer

Some work and some do not work so good

 

[chet]

If the rifle says "winchester" on it then there is no need to even test fire it! 8)


Seriously, if an out of the box rifle will shoot factory ammo 2-3 moa, then it will shoot sub moa with a handload....... sometimes it takes one or two test loads...... sometimes it takes more than ten.

You can find a rifles "max" load in 2 or 3 tests, but an accuracy load often takes more effort.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Wow
I think experience and knowledge will give a person a great advantage in their ability to evaluate probable outcomes but there are a lot of variables and tolerances involved in bullets, powder and rifles. I'd defer comment until I heard the gunsmith's exact statement with possible qualifiers.
I'd like to hear DrMikes thoughts on this.
Greg

 

[338winmag]

Cannot give literal exact quote, but I believe this is pretty close.

"Many people work on their loads for two years trying to find if their rifle is a shooter. I can tell if a rifle is a shooter in 2 loads."

So you see, I actually gave the benefit of the doubt and stated "2-3".

He could also tell how the rifle's firing pin was working by having someone have the phone up next to the rifle and dry fire a few times. Stated that he is one of the few that can do that.

I am not a gunsmith nor one with a long histroy of reloading (but I am catching on real quick), but I am an engineer and everyday I hear "stories" that match Paul Bunyan


..but as Charles Barkley says: "I could be wrong..."

 

[hubcap]

The master gunsmith sounds like a master welder that can weld ice cream to a screen door. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[DrMike]

A Master Gunsmith states he can tell whether a rifle will be an accurate shooter or not with no more than 2-3 custom load tests. Along with that insight, he can tell you what your optimum accuracy load is for that rifle in that same 2-3 custom load firing test.

I find it difficult to accept such a statement at face value. I wonder if the gunsmith is saying that he has confidence in his workmanship in crafting the rifle; therefore, if within three test loads he doesn't find acceptable accuracy he addresses the rifle itself as unacceptable. On some cartridges, certain loads stand out as shooting well in almost every rifle. Having loaded for some cartridges multiple times (hundreds of loads representing scores of rifles in some instances), I have observed that certain loads invariably shoot well. Obviously, I will look to these loads first when I am loading for a rifle chambered in that particular cartridge. I would imagine that the gunsmith in question is similarly disposed. I am often asked to keep looking when a rifle does not give great accuracy on the first try, as it is cheaper to develop loads than it is for the gunsmith to tear the rifle down and rebuild it. Even though I may not have great accuracy from a particular load, if the ballistic data is exceptional, I'm reasonably confident that I can make the rifle shoot. When the velocity meets expectation and the standard deviation is less than one percent (or more frequently, in single digits) I am reasonably confident that playing with seating depth (if the magazine permits) will produce an accurate round. Knowing that there are multiple nodes on most loads, I will discuss the issue with the owner and sometimes recommend a large jump to the lands, which means potentially intruding into the powder column. I could see that the gunsmith in question is thinking along similar lines, that if SD is tight, the rifle will in all probability be a shooter once the appropriate nodes are found.

I hope I'm not wandering too far afield when I give just a little background in my own explorations. With a new cartridge, or one I have less experience, before ever loading, I appeal to physics, studying such parameters as projected barrel time for a potential load, pressure requirements for the bullet to engage the lands and the shape of the pressure curve predicted. This information is available (together with even more information) from the QuickLOAD program. These parameters will be used to exclude some loads before they are tested. However, I am compelled to always keep in mind that I have to recommend a powder/primer/bullet combination that is generally available to the owner of the rifle.

I can accept that a good gunsmith who knows his product can predict that the rifle will shoot well. Few of the custom rifles I am privileged to shoot require more than three sets of loads to find a "shooter." This is a fluid description, however. Some owners are thrilled with MOA; others want 0.1 inch groups at 100 yards. The former invariably find that their rifle will shoot almost any load to their satisfaction; the latter will be restricted to a handful of loads to meet their demands. These rifles are well built--they are blue-printed and properly bedded, sporting some of the finest barrels available. Even so, there are occasions when these fine rifles can be finicky. I have had some of them that at first didn't appear to be "shooters." However, after working with the rifle, I found acceptable loads that would give the owner exceptional accuracy. In such instances, there was not much leeway in altering the recipe discovered. It was a precise combination of powder charge, bearing surface and bullet shape that would not permit any deviation.

Other rifles are semi-custom--they have an aftermarket barrel screwed on, or they have been blueprinted, or other work has been performed. Again, the owner has certain expectations. Many times, they have been watching television or reading magazines and have expectations that are not necessarily going to be matched by reality. I worked on one rifle that was built on the wrong action. The rifle, a 338 Lapua, was a solid sub-MOA shooter. However, the owner (who had never shot before, this being his first centre fire rifle) expected the rifle to give him 0.5 inch groups at 300 yards. He would not be dissuaded. After expending more money than was wise on my services and a considerable amount on gunsmithing, he gave up and bought the action I had first recommended and began again. I presented him with at least ten different loads that shot 0.5 MOA, but it didn't meet his expectation. Moreover, neither he nor his friends could shoot the rifle to the same degree of accuracy I was showing with the targets I presented. More recently, a fellow brought me a 300 WSM with a gain-twist barrel. He wanted a particular bullet because he had seen in on television. I questioned his choice, but he would not be dissuaded. Shortly after beginning his project, I recommended a different bullet, and "Voila," with the first set of loads he was getting 0.5 inch groups at 100 yards. The rifle was a shooter, but the longer bearing surface of the bullet he had seen on television would not stabilise in his rifle.

Consequently, there is a general perception that the larger the bore size, the less accuracy one can expect. I should note that I have observed some amazingly accurate medium-bore and large-bore rifles. I worked up a load for a 375 Ruger a couple of years back that gave me 0.25 inch groups with 270 grain TSXs at 100 yards. I recall a 460 Weatherby (factory rifle) that shot 3/4 inch groups on the first set of loads, which was about the limit of my ability. The owner was unhappy, however, and wanted 0.25 inch groups. My own 350 RM shoots 0.5 inch groups consistently, and my 358 Win shoots 0.3 inch groups.

Factory rifles built in recent years will often give MOA to 1.5 MOA accuracy within a few loads after a proper break-in. However, I note that most people that purchase a rifle expect exceptional accuracy from the firearm. One and a half minute of angle is thought to be wildly inaccurate, though few shooters are capable of shooting much better than that from field positions. I have cautioned people on numerous occasions that the ability to put nine out of ten shots into a pie plate is sufficient to kill game. When they can do that from field position, they are prepared to cleanly take game at that particular distance.

I wandered somewhat afield in this post, I realise. However, in short, the gunsmith may well be able to tell if the rifle will shoot after a few tests. It is the latter statement that is more troublesome, for if he states categorically that he can tell you what the optimum accuracy load will be, he has far more insight into ballistics that I do, or even than anyone that I know has.

 

[338winmag]

"I wandered somewhat afield in this post," --> no way!

I am very happy you spent that time writing that. I read the lines, in between the lines and heard the many things both were saying. Since this is being told to one of my family, (and not listening to me ), and the rifle is sent off already, there is a little bit of emotion that could biase my thinking but after reading everyone's comments, I feel I am at least on track.

Somethings that make so much since to me in regarding this situation.

1. "Factory rifles built in recent years will often give MOA to 1.5 MOA accuracy within a few loads after a proper break-in. However, I note that most people that purchase a rifle expect exceptional accuracy from the firearm." Yup, because of advertisements and some people's statements, the expectations are 100% sure that the "Savage 111 Long Range Hunter 300 Win Mag is supposed to shoot .5" groups with over the counter ammo!"

2. "therefore, if within three test loads he doesn't find acceptable accuracy he addresses the rifle itself as unacceptable." Well, with the over the counter rifle and no new parts but just working on the exisiting parts, this gunsmith believes he will have the custom load recipe (and give to rifle owner) that will shoot .5 groups ("or very close" - which in itself is a subjective statement), all from just 2 loads testing. I would like to be the fly on the wall to verify that.

3. "Few of the custom rifles I am privileged to shoot require more than three sets of loads to find a "shooter."" "As you see fro #2, this is not a custom rifle, unless people denote this one particular Savage worthy to be called custom or near custom?"

4. Kinda sad to me was the fact that it took a gunsmith to mention the little fact that this accuracy request would take a custom load and not an over the counter load. I do not believe that as "a rule for the whole", that many rifles can shoot .5" at 100 yds with over the counter ammo. Yes I did see one of your's just did that this morning but I still have to believe that is a very minute exception to the rule. (Should I say MOA to the rule )

Thanks for all of those discernements all!!

 

[DrMike]

Given the additional parameters you stated (factory rifle w/o custom attention), I would be compelled to state that the assertion is fallacy, fiction or just plain BS. It is simply not possible to know all the nodes, given the different parameters influencing barrel harmonics. To guarantee 0.5 inch groups, we would be charging far more than we do. In fact, I caution owners when they begin to state their expectations of exceptional accuracy that they need to leave me a blank cheque or their debit card and the PIN so that I can tap their account. While I may get exceptional accuracy, and often do, I can't make that guarantee without freedom to make multiple trips to the range.

If the rifle says "winchester" on it then there is no need to even test fire it!

+1 :lol:

 

[338winmag]

..and you would be the one to know from experience.

..I believe the gunsmith is going to make adjustments (recrown, boltface, firingpin, etc) but not replace anything with custom parts.

thanks again

 

[Guest]

Dr. Mike,
For my clarification. Would you please elaborate on the standard deviation with reloading and what that represents when developing loads.

Thank-You,
Don

 

[DrMike]

Standard deviation represents the mean on a string of shots. When you measure velocity, ideally you measure enough shots to make a meaningful statement. If I tell you that my velocity is 3000 fps, but I only took one measurement, all you can say accurately is that the one shot was 3000 fps. If I shoot three shots, and tell you that I have a range of shots from 2900 fps to 3100 fps, you could say that I have a velocity of 3000 fps, an extreme spread of 200 fps and a standard deviation of 100 fps. In other words, any given shot could be recorded as lying between 2900 fps and 3100 fps, or deviate from the norm (3000 fps) by 100 fps. For precision, most statisticians would recommend that you measure at least ten rounds to record an accurate standard deviation. For most hand loaders, a standard deviation of one percent is considered as a good load. Using the example I have provided, it would say that your loads will produce velocities between 2970 fps and 3030 fps, never deviating from the norm by more than one percent (30 fps). Many loads using modern bullets, match primers and modern powders will produce velocities that have standard deviations that are single digits. This past week, I actually had a test load that produced a velocity of 3103 fps +/- 0. All rounds were 3103. When that load is extended to ten rounds, that will change. It is not unusual, however, that I will see velocities that are ~3000 +/- 6 fps. This is a rather simplified explanation, but I hope it helps.

 

[Guest]

To take your statement further, would it be correct to assume if the deviation swing is showing greater than 1% it's reflecting overcharge/ unburned powder, typically with large powder charges seen in magnums like the 300-338 Ultras and Weatherby 30-378 ?

 

[DrMike]

In short, the answer to your question is "no." It is not at all unusual that a load will not burn 100% of the powder (muzzle flash is simply evidence of unburned powder being consumed at the end of the firing process). In part, this is because you will be maintaining a degree of pressure throughout the travel time of the bullet in the barrel. As soon as the bullet engages the lands and begins to travel down the barrel, chamber pressure will begin to drop as more room for expansion is being produced. By having some burning continuing throughout the process, it ensures that pressure does not drop precipitously. Thus, although pressure is dropping, the continued burning permits a more gradual decrease in the pressure curve. Obviously, this all happens very quickly (slightly more than one millisecond), but the measurements are still finite and quite real.

SD has as much (or more) to do with consistency of the burn rate, concentricity of the bullet as it engages the lands, amount of metallic expansion required to seal the chamber, burn rate of the powder relative to weight of the projectile, etc. as it does with the amount of powder actually burned during the combustion process before the bullet exits the barrel. The best way to get a low SD is to ensure that there are no variables in any parameter from cartridge to cartridge. A consistent technique (pressure upon seating the bullet, speed with which the ram is raised, run out, reproducible charge weights (or volume)) is more important in producing consistent loads that the amount of powder burned.

 

[Guest]

I'd be curious to know what this "gunsmith" charges for this magical service. Last time I checked, fairies and pixies were neither easy to find, nor worked cheap. It's going to take a lot of pixie dust to get this idea to fly.

It's a shame your family member didn't come to you with this rifle and ask for guidance. But, there is truth in the adage, "A fool and his money are soon parted." Sorry for your having to watch this take place. Of course, there is the off chance the gun wizard (since he's able to work magic and all) will come up with a load that is acceptable to the rifle's owner, and all will be well, except that your family member will be duped into believing this is "normal" and will continue to go to the well and throw his money in as he acquires other rifles. But, I refer back to the adage with which I began this paragraph.

 

[Guest]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify those things for me.

Don

 

[JD338]

To date, have had excellent with Remington M700s getting sub MOA with all that I have worked with. There were a couple that took some work but they got there.
Having said that, there are certain cartridges that have a magic load and they shoot well regardless of the make of the rifle. To make a blanket statement any gun any caliber, no way your smith can determine with 2 loads. I say fiction.

JD338

 

[BK]

Given the additional parameters you stated (factory rifle w/o custom attention), I would be compelled to state that the assertion is fallacy, fiction or just plain BS. It is simply not possible to know all the nodes, given the different parameters influencing barrel harmonics. To guarantee 0.5 inch groups, we would be charging far more than we do. In fact, I caution owners when they begin to state their expectations of exceptional accuracy that they need to leave me a blank cheque or their debit card and the PIN so that I can tap their account. While I may get exceptional accuracy, and often do, I can't make that guarantee without freedom to make multiple trips to the range.

If the rifle says "winchester" on it then there is no need to even test fire it!

+1 :lol:

Oh come on guys, Winnies aren't that bad that you can just write them off as never being able to be accurate! :twisted:

 

[DrMike]

BK,

I've got a safe full of Featherweights. Apparently, I like them. They are my favourite rifle, bar none.