RL-23 in 280 AI with Scirocco's

[Nimrod84]

Hi guys,

I have a 280 AI load with RL-22 that I'm considering trying with a spare pound of RL-23. I'm not sold on using RL-23 here, I have a pound of it and thought it might make sense to try it as the RL-22 load is a bit temperature sensitive.

Existing 280 AI load was chronographed around 40 degrees:
150 gr Scirocco seated to around 3.28-3.3"
Hornady brass with H2O capacity around 75.4 grains
RL-22, 58.5 grains gives about 2850 fps and 60-60.5 grains gives around 3000 fps.
CCI-BR2 primer

Looking over - viewtopic.php?t=31041 - I'm thinking I should start with 54 grains of RL-23 and work up to about 59 grains assuming it fits in the case. I'm thinking 59 grains should yield about 2800-2850 fps. Do my assumptions sound reasonable?

Thanks,
Nimrod84

 

[dougduey]

I'm running RL23 with the 150 gr LRAB. Final load is 61.4 gr at 3121 fps (ES 2/SD 0)!!
I got it up over 3200 fps and 62.0 gr, but ran out of case capacity.......I never hit pressure. I'd start at 58.0gr and work up

 

[JD338]

I'm running RL23 with the 150 gr LRAB. Final load is 61.4 gr at 3121 fps (ES 2/SD 0)!!
I got it up over 3200 fps and 62.0 gr, but ran out of case capacity.......I never hit pressure. I'd start at 58.0gr and work up

That's a pretty impressive load. What kind of accruacry are you getting?

JD338

 

[NYDAN]

I have used Reloder 23 with 150 gr. bullets in the 270 Win. and 150 gr. & 160 gr. bullets in the 7mmRM with great results. I have used it since I could first find it and have never seen any velocity changes due to ambient temperature. Start low though, since my reloads were faster than book values.

Dan

 

[Nimrod84]

Thank you for the responses.

Doug, do you mind telling what your COAL is with the LRAB's? It sounds like you might be seating longer than I can.

Dan, starting low is the plan - thinking 54 grains and working up to 59-60ish. I'm having to seat the bullets below the max COAL length of 3.33 for the 280 AI. As such I don't think pressure is going to be my main issue so much as case-capacity. But I'm still taking 10% off of 60 grains for the first round or two.

 

[dougduey]

Thank you for the responses.

Doug, do you mind telling what your COAL is with the LRAB's? It sounds like you might be seating longer than I can.

Dan, starting low is the plan - thinking 54 grains and working up to 59-60ish. I'm having to seat the bullets below the max COAL length of 3.33 for the 280 AI. As such I don't think pressure is going to be my main issue so much as case-capacity. But I'm still taking 10% off of 60 grains for the first round or two.

My COAL is 3.400"

 

[dougduey]

I'm running RL23 with the 150 gr LRAB. Final load is 61.4 gr at 3121 fps (ES 2/SD 0)!!
I got it up over 3200 fps and 62.0 gr, but ran out of case capacity.......I never hit pressure. I'd start at 58.0gr and work up

That's a pretty impressive load. What kind of accruacry are you getting?

JD338

Jury is still out on the LRAB. Some days I get below 0.5" moa and other days it open up a little over 1.0" moa. I'll check the velocity when it opens up and the numbers are right where they should be. I thought it was most likely the Indian and not the arrow, but I shot some of my hunting loads with Hammer bullets and shoot a ragged hole. My rifle just may not like the LRAB no matter how badly I want it to. I'll check it again once they open up the range and we can all get back to normal.

 

[Nimrod84]

Doug,

Thanks for the responses and please let me know how the LRAB's turn out; I know they can be pretty picky on seating depth. I have a box of them to try as well.

 

[lhsako]

Try using a drop tube and s-l-o-w-l-y charge the case while taping on the bench.
In the .270, I have found WW cases have perhaps 1-1.5 grain more capacity than RP. not sure of Hornady .

 

[SJB358]

Thank you for the responses.

Doug, do you mind telling what your COAL is with the LRAB's? It sounds like you might be seating longer than I can.

Dan, starting low is the plan - thinking 54 grains and working up to 59-60ish. I'm having to seat the bullets below the max COAL length of 3.33 for the 280 AI. As such I don't think pressure is going to be my main issue so much as case-capacity. But I'm still taking 10% off of 60 grains for the first round or two.

I think you'll be plenty safe there. I am using RL23 in my 270 with 150's and found a node around 58.4 and its been running a bit under 3000. Let me know what you come up with.

 

[Nimrod84]

Ihsako and SJB358 - Thank you for the feedback / info.

This is on my list of things to try when I get a chance, that is to convey when I once again have access to the 500 yard range up north. Also, I just got two suppressors extremely early (3 months or less for approval) - so I've been frantically ordering adapters and other accessories and dealing with non-reloading adventures... I haven't even been able to shoot them...

Anyway, I will report back once I get the Accubonds LR and the Swift Scirocco tested with RL-23. I am hoping to do some preliminary tests around the end of the month, but with the Michigan lock-down who knows???

 

[Nimrod84]

Quick update, the 150 grain ABLR are actually just Accubonds and I did not try loading any due to time constraints this weekend.

The 150 grain Scirocco's were tested from 55.5, and then half grain increments from 56.5 to 59 grains of RL-23. They are basically seated just off the lands, and yes I know they like to jump but they are in the lands at 3.33" and I was aiming for max powder capacity. Results were a bit odd, I'm thinking I will retest around 56 grains and see what shakes out - their is less powder compression their and can seat bullets a bit deeper for tuning. I had a flattened primer at 57.5 grains and called an end to the testing - weather was 80+ with near 100% humidity anyways.

Using fired brass, CCI BR-2 primer, RL-23 and 150 Scirocco with OVAL about 3.325"
Grain - velocity
55.5 - 2790
56.5 - 2800
57 - 2868
57.5 - 2875

The 57 and 57.5 had about a half inch vertical separation at 175 yards. If it weren't for that flattened primer, I would definitely be testing in that neighborhood. If nothing pans out in the 56 grain range, I might request a quickload work up at 57 grains just to get an idea of what is going on their.

Ihsako - I do use a double RCBS funnel / drop kit which gives me about 12" of drop tube. I can never seem to be consistent / slow enough with it though. The 59 grain load had a lot less crunching than the 58.5 grain load. I've been known to try shaking the load tray for a few seconds, which gets the kernals leveled pretty nicely; as noted at: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... g-methods/. Any suggestions on how to slow my powder drops?

 

[SJB358]

Pour on the side of the funnel and pour slowly. That works the best for me.

Your loads and speeds sound very mild for a 280 Ackley. I’m doing about 2980 with a few 150’s in a 22” 270 Win. I honestly don’t sweat flattened primers unless you’ve got something else showing you pressure. My Tikkas make all their primers flat from low to high.

Not saying 2850 isn’t decent but I think there is more to be had and likely around the 58-60 range.

 

[Nimrod84]

Thanks SJB358.

I agree it is giving up a bit and would expect a node around 59 grains. Rifle has generally been slow - 57.5-59 grains of H4831sc (lot dependent) and 160 grain Accubonds only gives 2700 or so fps. Accuracy has been good to great though, so I'm happy to deal with the slowness.

Recoil became much more pronounced between 57 and 57.5 grains of RL-23 and their really wasn't any velocity gain between 57 and 57.5 grains. I took both as additional warning signs.

My concern really is the bullets being seated at the lands and having compressed powder - rounds grow and they are in the lands... If they were sitting off the lands by a full 0.03" I wouldn't be particularly concerned.

 

[SJB358]

Thanks SJB358.

I agree it is giving up a bit and would expect a node around 59 grains. Rifle has generally been slow - 57.5-59 grains of H4831sc (lot dependent) and 160 grain Accubonds only gives 2700 or so fps. Accuracy has been good to great though, so I'm happy to deal with the slowness.

Recoil became much more pronounced between 57 and 57.5 grains of RL-23 and their really wasn't any velocity gain between 57 and 57.5 grains. I took both as additional warning signs.

My concern really is the bullets being seated at the lands and having compressed powder - rounds grow and they are in the lands... If they were sitting off the lands by a full 0.03" I wouldn't be particularly concerned.

So here is my thoughts, you are probably on the low node between 57 and 57.5 so you'll see very little progression in speed, where as the next load at 58 will probably start picking up again. I don't entirely buy into a slow rifle mostly because your gun may have a touch larger bore or chamber and it'll take a bit more to get up to book speeds.

I believe my little brother is using 60-61 grains of H4831SC with his 280 Ackley and the 150 Scirocco for just over 3000 FPS. Again, no harm and not much lost with the slower load but I bet you have a faster node up around the 3000-3050 speed which will result in tighter speeds since it will be compressed and likely very uniform.

Sometimes it doesn't work, but usually once you find the nodes you can match that speed with any powder that'll safely attain it and come out with about the same accuracy. Seen it a few times now.

 

[Nimrod84]

Thanks for the response.

I agree with - "...usually once you find the nodes you can match that speed with any powder that'll safely attain it and come out with about the same accuracy." I've seen that with two 30-06's and a 280 Rem.

I won't argue the slow rifle aspect, just a simple off hand statement of what I'm seeing. Could be attributed to a number of things. Powder will provide anticipated velocities in other rifles so it ain't the powder. As such I think it has a somewhat generous chamber with a very and I want to stress VERY short throat. The 280 AI has a specified max COAL of 3.33" and the Scirocco's are well into the lands at 3.3". The short throat is a significant limiting factor in case capacity, especially with bonded bullets that like to jump.

Do you happen to know what your brother's COAL is? Most guys that get the 280 AI into 7 Rem mag territory seem to be able to seat out to 3.35-3.4 or so inches.

My rifle is a Kimber 84L, controlled round feed with a petite action that is as compact as possible for weight savings. Also, Kimber roulette is a real thing so their are some little QC quirks to the rifle. Start loads will give a shinny spot on the case head and Federal primers will always flatten, so I've never used them as pressure signs. I can recheck the brass for ejector marks, and other stuff; but in the past the CCI BR-2's were flattening just before other pressure signs would show with IMR and H 4831 and IMR 4955.

Honestly, I think their is a node around 56 grains - at least at the current COAL. I had no velocity jump from 55.5 to 56.5 grains.

 

[clonebucky]

Thanks for the response.

I agree with - "...usually once you find the nodes you can match that speed with any powder that'll safely attain it and come out with about the same accuracy." I've seen that with two 30-06's and a 280 Rem.

I won't argue the slow rifle aspect, just a simple off hand statement of what I'm seeing. Could be attributed to a number of things. Powder will provide anticipated velocities in other rifles so it ain't the powder. As such I think it has a somewhat generous chamber with a very and I want to stress VERY short throat. The 280 AI has a specified max COAL of 3.33" and the Scirocco's are well into the lands at 3.3". The short throat is a significant limiting factor in case capacity, especially with bonded bullets that like to jump.

Do you happen to know what your brother's COAL is? Most guys that get the 280 AI into 7 Rem mag territory seem to be able to seat out to 3.35-3.4 or so inches.

My rifle is a Kimber 84L, controlled round feed with a petite action that is as compact as possible for weight savings. Also, Kimber roulette is a real thing so their are some little QC quirks to the rifle. Start loads will give a shinny spot on the case head and Federal primers will always flatten, so I've never used them as pressure signs. I can recheck the brass for ejector marks, and other stuff; but in the past the CCI BR-2's were flattening just before other pressure signs would show with IMR and H 4831 and IMR 4955.

Honestly, I think their is a node around 56 grains - at least at the current COAL. I had no velocity jump from 55.5 to 56.5 grains.

Nimrod, I'm also shooting a 280AI Kimber Montana 84L. Any updates on your experiences with the scirocco?

I'm getting excellent results with 140 AccuBond and 140TSX. Not as good with 160 AccuBond, though, and so I'm looking for some options that shoot well with heavier bullets.

 

[Nimrod84]

Hi Clonebucky,

Sorry for the late response.

I never got the 150 Swift Sciroccos to offer anything special (accuracy or velocity) in the Kimber, as the throat is just to short on my rifle. So I moved the Sciroccos over to a 280 Rem with a deeper throat. I found the Sciroccos to be a bit temperamental and I haven't been able to get consistently good groups from them; most loads tested across the rifles averaged around 1.5-2" for 5 shot groups at 100 yards.

I had good luck with the 160 grain AccuBond along with the 154 grain and 162 grain Hornady SST in the Kimber. I had to go a bit counter intuitive and seat the 160 grain Accubonds rather close to the lands (around 0.01) to really get them to shine in the accuracy department. Velocity was adequate at around 2700 fps. In the 280 Rem using Reloader 22 the 160 grain Accubonds are 2800+ fps. In my 280 Rem, I've had good luck with the 160 and 175 grain Nosler Partitions as well.

I get the desire for a heavier bullet... I pretty much just shoot 150 grains or heavier in my 280s. Please do keep in mind both of the 140 grain bullets you worked up should be pretty adequate for most target shooting / hunting... I would personally feel comfortable with them unless I was after Moose, in Grizzly territory or shooting past 500 yards.

Depending on your needs (and ability to purchase) the Hornady 154 grain Interbond might be a good fit, it has a little higher BC than the 150 grain Scirocco. The little I've read on them, imply that they are less temperamental than the Scirocco.

 

[clonebucky]

Thanks. What powder did your montana like with the 160ABs? I've had good luck with re22 and planning to try re23 as well. Possibly vv n560, too.

 

[Nimrod84]

Thanks. What powder did your montana like with the 160ABs? I've had good luck with re22 and planning to try re23 as well. Possibly vv n560, too.

H4831SC was the powder of choice in the Kimber with 160 grain Accubonds.

I'm in the middle of reloading room re-org; so I'm not sure where all my data is.

I believe I ultimately settled on 57.8 grains of H4831SC with CCI BR primers and multi-fired un-annealed Hornady brass, velocity tends low at around 2700-2750 fps (the 2800 fps number I gave last response was for the 280 Rem with RE22 - edited that response to make it clear). My groups get better as neck tension decreases and bullets are seated closer to the rifling.

Reloader 23 was "okay", but the accuracy wasn't quite as good as with H4831SC and the speeds topped out about the same before pressure signs showed up. I would definitely explore it if you have enough on hand.

I never gave the 160 grain Accubonds a full trial with Reloader 22 in the Kimber, as my 280 Rem loves them with a stiff load of RE22; and I only have ever had a few lbs of RE22 on hand at any one time. So while I think it should work well in my rifle, I want to keep my RE22 stash for a known result rather than waste it on hopes and dreams.

IMR 4451 was fairly disappointing in my 280 AI Kimber, but I can't recall why off the top of my head... I know I tried it with the 154 and 162 grain SSTs, and I'm fairly certain that I ran a pressure / velocity ladder with it and the 160 grain Accubonds... I can't recall if it failed to reduce copper fouling or if it had a lower efficiency - i.e. additional grains of powder gave small increases in velocity relative to other powders - but I was not impressed enough to adjust seating depths and try for accuracy with it.

Just FYI - IMR 4451 is my go to in a Kimber 30-06 with 165 grain bullets.