Smaller bores....bigger game

[c. schutte]

While half the shooting world is extolling the virtues of the "Creed" for virtually everything it WASN'T designed for, I'll just stick with the cartridges that offer more horsepower and get the job done with a margin of error built in.

Yes - if you put any decent bullet into the vitals of a game animal a kill is going to follow. But how often do all the elements of a perfect shot present themselves under real life hunting conditions?

I prefer my game to drop quickly to ensure recovery. Marginal cartridges rarely provide the DRT results that many hunters prefer.

So funny,

I know a young man, (30 years old) and this afternoon he was telling me of a rifle he is having built for elk. And yes, the "Creed" so I asked him why??? "Because of the fantastic B.C and long range energy."

He hunts deer and mule deer and is going on his first elk hunt this year. While not judging him and I am not the guy to offer elk hunting advice based on my very limited number of elk, I did ask him to keep an open mind to the virtues of a bigger cartridge for elk.

Anyway, I cracked a smile thinking or your Post.........................

chs

 

[c. schutte]

First and Foremost --congratulations to Mrs Thebear-78.

I think God's chosen caliber is different in different parts of the world, as I was told it was the 300 H & H

A serious question however. Why, do you shoot at game at 500 plus yards. Is it because the terrain will not allow you to get closer, you just want to see if you can make the shot, or ?

Second serious question. If your shooting a large bone animal like an Eland and you have access to a medium bore rifle that you shoot well, what would make you want to use a smaller caliber ?

Best Regards

Jamila

Jamila,

I don't aspire to shoot game at 500 yards, just want to be prepared in the event it is necessary and warrants. To date I have taken one animal at over 400 yards and one at 300. The rest have been 270 yards or less with plenty at under 100 yards. In some parts of Texas 300 yards might be all you get. I've also noticed the same in Colorado.

Remembering what a forum member said regarding shooting elk at 400 yards. He hunts with a group in CO. every year. A few of them will move around and a couple will just sit and wait. Those who sit and wait usually don't get a shot and the others will average one shot every other year or so.

These two who sit had two elk at just over 400 yards and they did not take the shot. Jim asked them to reconsider their self-imposed yardage limit reminding them if they practiced and were comfortable at 400 yards they would have scored.

Food for thought.

 

[Guy Miner]

What's "longer range" and why take a shot at longer ranges? I think "longer range" is pretty much determined by the hunter, their skill, and their equipment.

Why take the shot at longer ranges? Well... Terrain. When your only chance at game is a week or two long season, and the terrain is open, better be prepared to take that shot. Or eat tag soup:

Taking my 338 yard shot at elk last December. No problem. There was no way to get closer. The sagebrush ran out, and the elk were across a wide open area. A longish shot on game for me:


The bear was at 325 yards, across a canyon. He was moving, and getting any closer wasn't going to happen. Again, a longish shot for me, but no problem. Taken from sitting, no support. I practice for that. The bear I almost shot a week or so earlier, was at 15 or 20 yards... He was smaller than I wanted, though a mature bear:


Shot my 2015 mule deer in this country. I managed a 200 yard shot somehow (she wasn't very watchful?) but I was expecting a 400 yard poke.


2014 pronghorn - not much cover in that background is there?


2014 mule deer - again, not much cover avail, to close the distance:


But I managed to take the pronghorn at 160 yards, and the mule deer at 340 yards, so... even in wide open country a hunter CAN get closer... Just a thought. Gotta be ready to do so. Get low, move slow. If the shot doesn't come, try again. It's hunting not target shooting.

As an NRA Long Range High Master, I'm fully capable of 500+ yard shots, but I reserve those for the rifle range. Not on living game animals...

FWIW, Guy

 

[AK7AN]

I have taken 2 shots at game at over 600yds.. The first one I will say that I am in no ways proud of my accomplishment. Last day of deer season in Colorado and we had not seen any bucks.. I mean any, and I wasn't about to let this one disappear over the next ridge after stalking him for over an hour.. Rifle was a 444 Marlin SS.. Second shot took out his front wheels and he was able to go downhill. I intercepted him at the bottom of the canyon and made the finishing shot a 30 yds. I would not do that today, but today I no longer have 3 hungry kiddos and times were very tough financially for us. Second shot was at a super nice Pronghorn buck at 630 paces.. If anyone is familiar with the Saguache park area of South Central Colorado, there was no way to get closer and I had a rock steady rest. no wind, and a rifle and load I was confident in.. Nosler Custom 110gr AccuBond in 257 Rob. I work with a couple of blokes who will not take shots less that 400. I have also heard about finding dead bulls the next day... GRRRRR.. Also witnessed a bunch of hunters ( I will use that term loosely), pull up and bail out of their truck and start blasting away at a group of cows (that were over 500yds from them), that my son and I were working very hard to get close to.. After watching the herd disappear over the ridge, they all piled back in their truck and drove off. My son and I, still hopeful of getting a shot, worked our way over to where the herd had disappeared over the ridge, only to cut a good blood trail. Found a dead calf about 200yds after following the trail.. Was a great opportunity to teach my young son some real hunting ethics.
I know I probably went off subject a little here but I thought it would fit in.
I have no problem with long range hunting.. with whatever caliber is chosen, as long as the hunter behind the trigger is capable, and willing to follow up with every squeeze thereof.
In Colorado, 24 caliber is legal for all big game..
I believe Utah only has energy stipulations for caliber requirements.
Sorry to ramble on..
Take Care
Ed

P.S. Guy, I always enjoy your insight and your pictures are second to none..

 

[Anonymous]

Those are some great animals Guy. Very nice. I think it's pretty interesting how the language of shooting changes depending on your area. I hunt a lot of dead open country- high tundra and mountains above tree line- and none of the distances you've mentioned seem unusually long at all. I've shot far more from 200-300 yards than under 100 yards.

I guess "long range" to me starts at 400-500ish. I totally agree with the sentiment though that getting closer can generally be done with patience and stalking technique. I went on a mile long stalk that took 2 hours this year on a group of caribou that were bedded. I was tempted to shoot from 450 but kept belly crawling bush to bush for another hour until I finally has a 225 shot from prone off of my bino case. Pretty gratifying to pull the trigger and just watch one roll over DOA.

 

[Blkram]

Jamila,

I can only answer question 2 as I have not taken a shot at an unwounded animal at over 500 yards. And only once have I done so; took a shot at a wounded elk at 525 yards, but did not connect. I got much closer to finish the wounded animal, as he wasn't getting very far with his broken shoulder and destroyed lung, with a 160 gr SGK fired from a 7 mm STW, but he sure wasn't ready to any down and give up the ghost yet. My first shot was under-estimated and cut hair at 475 yards (thought it was 400), adjusted and fired second shot at wounded animal and broke front shoulder and penetrated into lung. Was shooting from solid rest off of large hay bale.

For #2, While I have large bone calibers for North American game such as elk, bison and grizzly bear (300, 338, 358, 375 and 416), I would be tempted to use a smaller caliber for them with self-imposed restrictions. For example, I would use the 6.5x55 or 7mm-08 for spike elk or cow elk, but only with 140 gr or heavier bullets of quality construction, and within distances where the bullet would still carry 2000 ft-lbs of energy at the animal, and the animal would need to be broadside or quartering away for unobstructed access to the vitals of the unwary animal. First of all, I would want to be able to truthfully tell a new hunter that I have done it myself and have full confidence in the weapon, as long as they do their part (been there, actually done that, sorta thing). And second, be able to provide proof with photos and recovered bullet(s) from game for verification? This for the fact that many hunters use these cartridges for youth, women and new hunters for this exact scenario.

A big bull elk is a very different animal, and even more so when in the height of the adrenaline crazed rut! Here the stakes go up, as does my preference for larger cartridges. While I have done it with the 280 Rem, 7 mm Rem Mag and STW and the 300 WSM, I still prefer the 338 caliber. This from actual field experience on over two dozen elk, including 20 bulls. I've taken 5 bison with the 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag and 376 Steyr. I preferred the performance of the 338 here, over the 300, and the 376 was just that much better!

Guess this is why I built the 376 and 416; for when I get to Africa!

 

[salmonchaser]

Terrain is the limiting factor, deep and steep. I have passed on a lot of elk over 600 yards, most have been between 2 and 300 yards. The way the ground folds if they are on my side they will be 30 to 100. If I could get the 30 yard shot every year I'd be happy.


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[SJB358]

Terrain is the limiting factor, deep and steep. I have passed on a lot of elk over 600 yards, most have been between 2 and 300 yards. The way the ground folds if they are on my side they will be 30 to 100. If I could get the 30 yard shot every year I'd be happy.


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Boy if that isn't the truth.. I really enjoyed the two close shots I had this past fall.. 150 and about 75 yards.. I was looking for bullet tracks and powder burns.. :lol:

 

[IdahoCTD]

I shot 3 elk this year at 70yds, around 200yds, and 600yds. The 600yd shot was in wide open sage brush and we walked as close as we could to them. They watched us the whole way as there wasn't any cover for the mile or so hike to get to 600yds. We actually got to about 480yds at one time and they didn't like us that close. This was in January so they were pretty calm compared to other times of the year. The 200yd bull was from a huge group of elk that my buddy missed a bull out of and they were headed out of the area. The 70yd bull I cow called in. I also shot a antelope at 325 in some very open country.

I shot a 300wsm, which is just about the same as your beloved 300 H&H Jamila, for all 4 animals.

 

[salmonchaser]

I don't own a 300wsm and for most of my life I hunted moose, bighorns, pronghorns, bears, elk, deer, coyotes, jackrabbits, rock chucks, prairie dogs and ground squirrels with the same .30-06.
At 61 years old, if some disaster occurred and I lost all my rifles, I'm pretty certain the first replacement would be a 300wsm.
You had a great year!


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[Blkram]

When confronted by game across open fields or areas, I have found that using the Montana Decoys as a cover works well. DrMike and I were a 1/2 mile from the herd of elk, and had a herd of white tails to our south in the field that we had to pass to get within our comfort range to try to get a shot at a bull for Mike. We used two decoys and soft cow calls to work our way across the open field (I had the frontal one in front and Mike carried the side view one, and we had doused them with BuckBomb elk in estrous scent, as the elk would eventually be downwind of us). While the deer were alert we did not scare them out of the field as we passed downwind at about 250 yards, headed for the elk. The elk were also aware of us, but did not spook either, and actually moved our way further into the field. We closed to about 300 yards, unfortunately there wasn't a legal bull for Mike in the group.

The moose and caribou decoys work pretty good for this as well.

I am trying to get Montana Decoys to make a mountain goat decoy for me. Just need to get a good photo.

I have also seen outfitter Steve Jones on video use a burlap cover for him and his hunter to get within muzzleloader range of antelope in New Mexico, in very open country.

 

[ShadeTree]

An old timer from where I live now once told me he didn't think anyone has any business taking a shot at a deer or elk beyond 250 yards. I'll go a bit farther than that but errors really start to magnify exponentially the farther out you get. I would rather hear the stories about the hunter who stalked his prey and closed the distance to something more reasonable. Besides, thats the really fun part of hunting!!

I thoroughly enjoy sneak hunting in the timber for whitetail on either windy or wet days. It's a game that takes plenty of concentration and patience and a game that the deer have at least a 90% advantage, or at least in my case they seem to. But every now and then that 10% chance results in a very satisfying success.

 

[Blkram]

An old timer from where I live now once told me he didn't think anyone has any business taking a shot at a deer or elk beyond 250 yards. I'll go a bit farther than that but errors really start to magnify exponentially the farther out you get. I would rather hear the stories about the hunter who stalked his prey and closed the distance to something more reasonable. Besides, thats the really fun part of hunting!!

I thoroughly enjoy sneak hunting in the timber for whitetail on either windy or wet days. It's a game that takes plenty of concentration and patience and a game that the deer have at least a 90% advantage, or at least in my case they seem to. But every now and then that 10% chance results in a very satisfying success.

My first antelope hunt was with a bow, but had the rifle as backup as meat was the primary goal, and more important than bragging rights. On the open prairie, I finally left the bow and decoy behind and belly crawled several hundred yards to within 140 yards of the bedded buck and harvested him with the 7MM STW. While I could have shot him from further away, the fun part of the challenge was seeing how close to the herd I could get crawling through the wheat stubble. They busted me at about 200 yards, but with patience and slow steady movements when they settled, I was able to still close the distance. The shot was when the entire herd had rose and moved to where they could see me better, and the buck finally rose from his bed and offered me a decent shot presentation. Wasn't a large buck, but he sure was tasty!

My stomach and side muscles were sore for a week after that crawl; inching along on toes and elbows with a rifle for that distance! Will never forget it, and wouldn't have missed it for the world!

 

[ShadeTree]

An old timer from where I live now once told me he didn't think anyone has any business taking a shot at a deer or elk beyond 250 yards. I'll go a bit farther than that but errors really start to magnify exponentially the farther out you get. I would rather hear the stories about the hunter who stalked his prey and closed the distance to something more reasonable. Besides, thats the really fun part of hunting!!

I thoroughly enjoy sneak hunting in the timber for whitetail on either windy or wet days. It's a game that takes plenty of concentration and patience and a game that the deer have at least a 90% advantage, or at least in my case they seem to. But every now and then that 10% chance results in a very satisfying success.

My first antelope hunt was with a bow, but had the rifle as backup as meat was the primary goal, and more important than bragging rights. On the open prairie, I finally left the bow and decoy behind and belly crawled several hundred yards to within 140 yards of the bedded buck and harvested him with the 7MM STW. While I could have shot him from further away, the fun part of the challenge was seeing how close to the herd I could get crawling through the wheat stubble. They busted me at about 200 yards, but with patience and slow steady movements when they settled, I was able to still close the distance. The shot was when the entire herd had rose and moved to where they could see me better, and the buck finally rose from his bed and offered me a decent shot presentation. Wasn't a large buck, but he sure was tasty!

My stomach and side muscles were sore for a week after that crawl; inching along on toes and elbows with a rifle for that distance! Will never forget it, and wouldn't have missed it for the world!

It sure is satisfying to out smart their keen senses when it happens. One that sticks out in my mind wasn't a particularly large whitetail buck by any means but where I first seen him I couldn't safely shoot as he was sky lined and I couldn't tell what was beyond him if I missed. I ended up going way out around and sidelined the hill he was skylined on to hide me. I crawled up to the top and slowly stood up when I thought I was where I could see him if he was still there. Killed him at 35-40 yds. You don't win those games very often, or at least I don't. It was an extremely satisfying hunt.

 

[rodell]

I have a self-imposed limit of 300 yards. It isn't that I can't, it is that I won't. I am not going to go hungry and if I get busted getting closer, so be it.

I don't care too much what others do, as long as it is legal. There are enough divisions between gun owners now, without adding to it.

 

[35 Whelen]

Well the American public has become an interesting creature. And watching TV shows about hunting exotic locations allows the avg guy a chance to sorta " experence"The "high life" and dream of hunting some of these far away places they will probably never get to.......
Like radio heros, they have TV heros. But unfortunately most of those folks are marketing something. Long Range Shooting has become extreamely popular to watch on these outdoor channels. This movement of hunters rushing To buy a "creedmoor" and a scope with blue dails, and a Stormy Kormer hat to try and pretend your John Porter absolutely amazes me?These hunting shows; where they prance out a 9 year old and they shoot a massive Bull Elk, at Over a thousand yards, with a bullet arriving with something like 38/40 energys??? Are getting as common as Chinese crap at Walmart.
It is never mentioned in these shows trying to promote a custom rifle or a $2000 scope that in real world hunting, the weather is never perfect, the wind is never calm, the moose doesnt stand out in the middle of a park perfectly broadside for you. 99% of the time; the wind would have more to do with how precisely you could hit an animal at 1300 yds than the caliber or the scope or probably the gun.
To assume that if you buy a Gunwerks rifle (very nice) a Huskamaw scope(great idea) in a caliber most can shoot, with even the finest bullets money can buy; that will be arriving at energy levels so low you could dam near catch them in a baseball glove ????
And that you could place that bullet so precisely at 1300 yds; you could consistantly expect one shot kills , IMHO is utter BS.........
99% of the folks believing that is how it is going to work for them are dreaming. :|
Is it possible to hit a bull elk at 1300 yds if you have an elevated skill level ; And everything is in your favor ?YEP it is possible ; No question about it! But now can you expect to flatten them ,with one well placed shot, under normal real world hunting conditions ???.................. Now here is the part that ruins the dream they are trying to sell.
NO you can NOT. At the severely reduced velocitys and low energys left ; by the time the bullet gets out that far combined with everyday windage complications, it is an almost certain outcome is "you would not be able to place the now underpowered bullet perfectly enough" to expect "one shot" kills.PERIOD. What you could expect is a wounded Elk doing everything he can to put as much country as he can between the two of you. Looks good in the movies , sells custom rifles, it has sent the scopes with dails ,to the front of the pack! Custom ammo $50/100 a box is everywhere. Good for bussiness? Yep. Hot subject down at the pub? Yep. Realistic? Nope.
Hey they say it is better to have dreamed and failed , then to never have dreamed at all.

 

[ShadeTree]

Well the American public has become an interesting creature. And watching TV shows about hunting exotic locations allows the avg guy a chance to sorta " experence"
The "high life" and dream of hunting some of these far away places they will probably never get to.......
Like radio heros, they have TV heros. But unfortunately most of those folks are marketing something. Long Range
Shooting has become extreamely popular to watch on these outdoor channels. This movement of hunters rushing
To buy a "creedmoor" and a scope with blue dails, and a Stormy Kormer hat to try and pretend your John Porter absolutely amazes me. These hunting shows; where they prance out a 9 year old and they shoot a massive Bull Elk at
Over a thousand yards, with a bullet arriving with something like 38/40 energys, are getting as common as Chinese crap at Walmart.
It is never mentioned in these shows trying to promote a custom rifle or a $2000 scope that in real world hunting, the
Weather is never perfect, the wind is never calm, the moose
Doesnt stand out in the middle of a park perfectly broadside too. 99% of the time the wind would have more to do with how precisely you could hit an animal at 1300 yds than the caliber or the scope or probably the gun.
To assume that if you buy a Gunwerks rifle (very nice) a Huskamaw scope in a caliber most can shoot, with even
The finest bullets money can buy arriving at energy levels
So low you could dam near catch them in a baseball glove,
And that you could place that bullet so precisely at 1300 yds you could consistantly expect one shot kills , IMHO is utter BS.........
99% of the folks believing that is how it is going to work for
them are dreaming.
Is it possible to hit a bull elk at 1300 yds if you have a elevated skill level and everything in your favor, yep it is
Possible no question about it. Can you expect to flatten
Them with one well placed shot under normal real world
Hunting conditions.................. Now here is the "sticker"
NO you can NOT. At the severely reduced velocitys and low
Energys left ;by the time the bullet gets out that far combined with everyday windage complications it is an almost certain outcome is "you would not be able to place the now underpowered bullet perfectly enough" to expect "one shot" kills.PERIOD. Looks good in the movies , sells custom rifles,
Sent the scopes with dails ,to the front of the pack. Custom ammo $50/100 a box is everywhere. Get for bussiness? Yep. Hot subject down at the pub? Yep. Realistic? Nope.
Hey they say it is better to have dreamed and failed , then to never have dreamed at all.

Amen brother Whelen! Add to that I seen one of those "scope" shows where the guy ended up shooting the animal at like 200 yds and still bragged on the accuracy of you just turn the dial to the distance and it's dead on. Well good grief. At that range you just make sure you steady the crosshairs mid center on top of everything from a standard 243 up to an 06 and squeeze the trigger. What's the fancy dials on top got to do with it? I get so tired of watching these shows and constantly hearing the hunter ask for the distance when most times it's under 250, sometimes under 200. In range is in range. Concentrate on the being ready for the first available good shot which might very well quickly come while you're asking for the distance for the third time which has only changed 15 yds since the first time you asked, and just shoot for crying out loud.

 

[c. schutte]

Hunting shows,

Fun to watch but, they are still shows.

Heck, my cable package no longer shows them (expanded basic) and I won't spend the extra to get them.

 

[69gto]

Well said 35 Whelen, the only way an elk will drop in it's tracks at that range is a brain shot or a high shoulder shot hitting the spinal cord.

 

[elkhunternm]

This what Bob Hagel wrote "A hunter should not choose a caliber,cartridge and bullet that will kill any animal when everything is right;rather,he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong."