Three Kimber Rifles

[GRT338]

First, I would like to say a Thank You to DrMike, JD338, and Pop. To these gentlemen for sharing their opinions and reloading specifics for various rifles I requested information on. Your invaluable experience and knowledge is a "pot of gold" to me and I'm sure to many others. Once again, I thank you!

Second, to DrMike.. and possibly others concerning the "problems" previously experienced with Kimber rifles. Maybe its just me.....I have three Kimber rifles, and after reloading since 1963, cannot seem to get any of the three to shoot consistantly in any smallish(MOA or less) groups of three. The calibers are a 7-08, a Select Classic, and a 308 Win. & a 338 Federal, both select grade. All 3 with 22" barrels, fee-floated. Factory with "match chambers and match barrels. Regardless of what "load/bullet/powder combination" I try it is never consistant! Sometime I can shoot two in the same hole, and throw the last an inch or so out. Not consistant in all three, just can't seem to get that third in the same hole. 5 round groups the same, just more holes! With the 338 Federal I seem lucky at times to shoot "minute of pie-plate". Using Federal GM Match brass necked to the caliber and FL sized in Redding bushing dies in all three calibers shoot two and throw the third somewhere on the target. Sometime the two don't touch, so there's three in an inch or inch and a half or larger... All action and scope mounting screws are tight....New Win. brass for caliber or 308 brass necked to 338 Federal respond the same...Federl GM match brass weighs consistantly 17 grains more than the Winchester. I am shooting Nosler AB's, BT's, E-tips, and Partitions, and Barnes TSX in all calibers. Nothing at this time shows promise...I do experience some pressure signs with the Federal brass about two-three grains before with the same load in Winchester brass. Not with all powder/bullet combinations...just showing the difference in capacity of Fed/Win Case.
I did proper barrel break-in of about 100 rounds through each before really trying for groups. (almost ruining a Dewey coated rod) All three are free floated, pillar/glass-bedded, and have 3 to 3-1/2 pound trigger pull. Two have Leupold VX-III scopes mounted in Talley Lt-Wt mount/rings, the 308 Win is mounted with Talley's and a Zeiss Divari-C. Scopes not a problem....after starting this bag of worms...am open to any suggestions. I sincerely thank you in advance for taking the time to read this, and for any answers/suggestions I may receive.
GRT338

 

[3006savage]

One of my best friends has 3 Kimber Montanas one in 308, one in 338 Federal and one in 300wsm. All three shoot great with factory ammo shooting around an inch. I shot his 338 and my 3 round group was 1 1/4" and I never handled the gun before. I feel if I got familiar with it things would just get better. That little 338 really kicked with a lightweight scope and the whole package at around 5.75lbs.

 

[DrMike]

Thank you for your kind words. Few things are more frustrating than a rifle with a good reputation that won't shoot. To make a long story short, I shot quite a number of Kimber rifles a few years ago that did not live up to expectations. They were all in short cartridges (7mm-08, 270 WSM, etc.). The experience was sufficiently disappointing that I passed on the opportunity to buy Kimber and stayed with Winchester. Almost all these rifles had the barrel replaced, and still gave groups that were less than satisfying. Compounding the frustration customers experienced was the lack of consideration from customer service at Kimber. Even when a rifle was returned to Kimber, it came back shooting three inch groups in many cases, and then they would not consider re-examining the rifle because it "met their standard." One customer was so aggravated that he rebarreled with a Pac-Nor barrel and rebedded the rifle. The fix for the problems generally were to bed the rifle and to recrown the barrel. It was an issue of quality control at that time.

You have done everything that could possibly be done in terms of of your loads, and you were extra careful about break-in. If these were my rifles and I planned on keeping them, I believe I would have them assessed by a competent gunsmith to examine the bedding and the crowns. If these were adequately addressed and I still didn't have the accuracy I expected, I would be prone to consider blue-printing the action to gain what was lacking. While one may argue that such should not be required of a higher-end rifle, the option is to either accept them as they are or trade them in for another brand.

 

[rick smith]

Several years ago I purchased a Kimber 84 in 7/08, Kahles scope in Talley rings. Fired several hundred rounds, various powders/brass/bullets/primers, tried two other scopes. Found out the bedding is done on a slave action not the action in the stock. Rebedded the action and polished the crown. Wrote a letter to Kimber explaining what I had experienced and asked what they suggested, send it to them for evaluation? Their reply gave the inch pounds for the action screws. Sold it to another loader friend who thought he could make it work. Didn't happen. He sent it to the factory for evaluation, came back with no change. He sent it to them again, returned again with no change. They did send targets that were supposely shot in his rifle. 1.5" at 50 yds. From a "Match Grade Barrel" as they advertise. My friend sold the rifle. From what I am seeing on various sites I visit, it is a crap shoot on whether or not the Kimber you buy will shoot well or not. I have had plenty of stock factory rifles that shoot less than MOA at 100yds. I think Kimber has too many quality control problems for me to consider buying another. I have read of cracked stocks, finish peeling off, failure to feed but the most common complaint is accuracy.Rick.

 

[DrMike]

Rick,

Your experience mirrors a number of situations with Kimbers that I handled. I have not seen a Kimber in this area for about three years--people divested themselves of the Kimbers they had; the Kimber reputation really took a hit. Their service reps really hurt their image with people that had purchased them in this area.

I know that I read good things about Kimber, and that from some people I truly respect, but I have yet to see a Kimber that shoots acceptably. Candidly, at this point, I would choose almost any rifle over a Kimber in anticipation that it would give better service.

 

[GRT338]

Thanks to DrMike, 3006savage, & RickSmith....I appreciate the experiences and the opinions along with the suggestions and exclaimations!! At least I feel somewhat better towards myself.....
I would imagine its time I take the bull by the horns and start the experimentation on these rifles to see if there's something I can do to try and make them shoot decently......I know the recoil lugs on the 338 Federal are not bearing properly, the crown is sharp to touch and doesn't look that smooth through a magnifying glass, and I will probably re-bed the rifles using either Devcon or Acraglas. I have always been able to make my custom rifles or the guns I have built custom stocks for shoot by bedding with forend tip pressure. So, with what you gentlemen have voiced gives me something to work on. I will start with the 308 this next week on return from our spring blackbear hunt north of here....near the BC border....til then, again, I thank you ...and will keep in touch to let you know how it goes. If I can't make these Kimbers shoot, like I want them to, I'll just get rid of them.

 

[DrMike]

Ray,

Before you fore end bed, check the factory bedding. Then, use some card stock folded to give a little pressure on the fore end to see if that tightens the groups. I am not a big fan of fore end bedding, though I have done it on one of my rifles. If there is another fix, I prefer that, seeing the fore end bedding as a step of last resort.

 

[big rifle man]

Guys, you are making me feel very guilty. I've owned a Kimber Montana in .300WSM for four years now and have nothing but good luck with it. I have a Kahles 3-9 with Leupold mounts on it. I went to the range this past monday and came home very satisfied. I shot 180 grain Sierra Pro hunters with 67.5 grains of IMR4831, winchester cases and Fed 215M primers. OAL was 2.850. I was able to shoot repetitive three shot groups of 1 1/8" to 1 1/2 inches at 200 yards. My Kimber does not like a hot barrel and it is a light rifle and will move if you look at it the wrong way while bench resting. I do check each round for concentricity which I have found is pretty good with Redding dies and a competition bullet seater.

 

[C.Smith]

Ray, I have some Berger .308 168 grain hunting VLDs I can send you some to try out? Let me know.

Corey

 

[JMUPT]

Not sure if you have tried fire lapping the barrel or not, I had a howa rifle in 300 WSM that no matter what I did it would not shoot any better than 2" groups, got the wheeler fire lapping kit and followed the directions and the rifle now shoots 1" or better. Also I know a guy that had a ruger that would shoot 4-5inch groups, after lapping it shot 1-1.5 inch groups. I hope you find the answer to your problems, it frustrating when you purchase a higher quality firearm and get the results that you have.

 

[GRT338]

DrMike....alrerady planned to do just that with the "card thickness"....will try different things, but one at a time....skinny, light barrels will repond with a little pressure up there sometime so we'll see. I would have already gone to the range but it's closed on Tue/Wed. If we don't depart tomorrow for the "north country" I will be there with several thichnesses of cards and my big scizzors...
To everyone else, I thank you again for your suggestions.
Ray

 

[GRT338]

JMUPT...thought about that too, but I want to try a few things before thinking about that. Kimber's are supposed to have match grade barrels and chambers from the factory but these sure don't shoot like it. It is frustrating as you say but I'm willing to try different things as we go along here. I have tried many various loadings of powders, bullets, and OA cartridge lengths to no avail. The magazine length is 2.801" according to my digital caliper, so am limited as far as seating out if I want to use the magazine and not have a single-shot. The chamber/throat area is almost exact to the length of the magazine. The chambers on all three rifles are cut to very tight dimensions. The rifling is so very sharp and the bores reflect like slick glass mirrors...very easy to clean-out the copper now....so as frustrating as it is....I accept the challenge to try these different solutions in hopes that some, one, or all may work with producing that "ragged hole"....back to the drawing board...
Ray

 

[DrMike]

Whatever it is worth, I've never seen a Kimber that had a poor barrel. As far as clean cuts, they were very good indeed. However, it was the little things that have given them fits. I would be very surprised if fire lapping, or even judicious use of JB Paste, would change the ability to group.

 

[Desert Fox]

We put so much emphasis on load and rifle. How about your shooting technique, ie trigger control, cheek placement and breathing. Why not practice trigger and breathing control by dryfiring your rifle. Just a thought!!!

 

[big rifle man]

Desert fox is on the money. I have found that I really have to settle down and concentrate on doing things right to get the groups I'm looking for. The Montana is so light that any disturbance throws you off. There's a reason competition bench rest rifles have substantial weight.

 

[rick smith]

Bench technique is important but don't think that is the Kimber problem. I have shot quite a few light weight rifles and not had the problems I had with the Kimber I had. Even had several known good shooters to give the Kimber a try. No luck with groups and certainly no help from customer service at Kimber. I don't consider 2-3" groups at 100yds to be shot from a match grade barrel.Rick.

 

[Desert Fox]

One rifle maybe... but all three!. If you can put two together and throw the third one out of the group... That tells me the rifle performed as it should. The errand shot can be attributed to myriad of things. I'm not questioning your shooting ability, these is just a thought but these could be due to an inconsistent trigger pull, improper breathing, inconsistent cheek placement, parallax error, mirage, eye fatigue, wind, flinch or just plain inconsistent reloaded ammo. It won't take much for a sporter rifle like your Kimber to throw a shot out of the group. We all experienced these... happens to me from time to time. One thing for sure though, rifle stock design has a lot to do with it. To give you an example, I shot better with my 338 Lapua even though it kicks hard because it feels right in my hand. I attributed these to a well thought out design of the McMillan A-4. It so easy to get consistent group with this rifle.

I believed you already found your load. Why don't you try shooting your rifle at long ranges or at maximum distance you're willing to shoot at game animal. You'll be surprised how accurate your rifle can be.

I don't have experience with the new Kimber. I have one Kimber of the old and it's a shooter.

 

[rick smith]

DesertFox, that seems to be the common problem with the Kimbers. It is not always the third shot that is off with the kimbers. I don't think the shooter could do the same thing with three rifles, the rifle is not doing it's job.

 

[Kimber7man]

GRT338,

Just reading this post now, haven't visited here in a while. I'm interested in your results in trying to get your Kimbers to shoot. Have heard a lot about finicky 7mm-08's from Kimber but almost everyone I've seen post about their .308 seems to really like the 84M in that caliber.

Thanks!

 

[RiverRider]

When I am having problems with a particular rifle, I try to always have another proven rifle along that I can count on to shoot well. I went through a shooting slump a few years back where I was not doing that and I couldn't seem to shoot anything well until I dropped back ten and punted---IOW I went back to something I knew would work. I have found that if I have no confidence in my shooting I have no confidence in the results I am getting and everything appears to be inconclusive. It's hard to know which way to go when you have no confidence in the data you're generating.