why magnums?

[Mountain Goat]

If you want a magnum, use a magnum. Personally, I no longer hunt elk with anyone who tells me I am over gunned with the 300 RUM.

Are magnums better? No, but a lot of guys really have this thing about proving that I can be done with a smaller caliber. Next time you think a 260,270 or thereabouts is as effective as a 300 WM for elk, shoot a grapefruit at 100 yards and tell me which one would make the most humane kill when examining the after effect.

I am going to use the weapon which will provide the most humane kill in my hands. That is why I sold my 270 and started using my 30-06. Personal experience and preference for me.

Well that's a first... sold your 270 and started using you're 06..... I'm getting a brain cramp on that one.

Are you sure it didn't just un-cramp?

 

[JD338]

Magnums do extend ones range IF they have the right equipment, optics, skill set and they practice.
I like the ability to drive heavy for caliber weight bullets faster for more down range energy.

JD338

 

[baltz526]

I have a 300 win mag I use for cascade mountain Elk killing. Shots are normally under 100yds. Fast action at unknown angles. The magnum pushes a big tough bullet, fast enough that It will penitrate an elk from any angle into the chest cavity. Tracking an Elk in what can be a rain forest some days is near impossible. So I use the energy of the magnum, to not have to track them. My intent is to kill them with massive trama, broken bones. Break them down fast with multiple hits as fast as i can cycle the bolt. If given a side shot angle, I'll hit them high shoulder and while there still flopping, i'll hit them in the front chest or neck. My intent is to kill them fast and ugly. That is why I use a magnum. YMMV

 

[Silent Sam]

They are simply another level of power. Pick a caliber and there is a whole range of power levels whether or not they are labeled "magnum" or not. Which one is the "correct" one? What anyone deems enough is a personal decision. Nothing personal, but I don't need to justify my cartridge choices to anyone. Does what I think you "need" matter?

I also believe elk are in different category than other NA game, for whole a variety of reasons. I've seen 'dead' elk cover an amazing amount of ground in tough country where who is at the top of the food chain may be in debate.

 

[BK]

I like magnums, that's why I use them.

I like '06 based rounds. That's why I use them. Well, except the .270.

I like .308 based rounds, too, and I think you can probably see where I'm going with this.

When I use my .257 Weatherby, 7 Mags, .300 Mags, or WSM/RSAUMs, I do not try to convince myself that they are more capable. I'm still the weak link in the system.

 

[Richracer1]

I do not try to convince myself that they are more capable. I'm still the weak link in the system.

+1 on that.

 

[SJB358]

I don't even really think of magnum vs non magnum labels really. If you put it that way, a Whelen is a magnum compared to a 30-06. The Whelen launches a 225 the same speed a 30-06 launches a 180. That is magnum class in my mind.

I am with Jim, Mike and the others, I like the ability to launch heavier for caliber bullets the same speeds or better than a standard cartridge will. It makes less drift and delivers more energy to the target.

 

[Guest]

150 grain .270 bullet has the same mass as a .338 200 grain bullet and both run our of steam at 600 yards with the same veloctiy.

Before I delve into why I do or do not use magnum rounds, let me just say that the statement above is patently false. In fact, unless you don't know what "mass" is, it's false on the face of it. Mass is a measure of the matter in a given object. It is correlated with weight, when subjected to varying levels of gravity. What that means is, a 150gr bullet has sufficient mass to produce a weight of 150gr in Earth's gravity. If we put that bullet into a spacecraft and launched it to Mars, it would maintain the same mass, but would vary in weight until its return to Earth. The 200gr bullet has a greater mass than the 150gr bullet by sheer virtue of it's greater weight measurement here on earth. It would, correspondingly, have a greater weight measurement in all other gravities (proportionally) until you achieve zero gravity, which is technically impossible, as we are acted upon by the gravity of the various bodies of the universe at all times, despite our ability to discern it. So, a 150gr bullet has, in fact, 75% of the mass of a 200gr bullet. To say otherwise is to defy the laws of physics.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I'll address the magnum issue. I shoot them. I also shoot non-magnums. On my bench at any given moment over the last 30 years, belonging to myself or friends of mine, I've had any combination of the following: 22lr, 243Win, 270Win, 270WSM, 270Wby, 7mm-08, 7mmRemMag, 30-30WCF, 308Win, 30-06, 300WinMag, 300Wby, 8x57, 338WinMag, 35Rem, 350RemMag, 44Mag, 444Marlin, 45LC, and 454Casull in various rifles of one type or another. All of them have their place and serve a purpose. In making a few classic comparisons, a 270Wby will shoot to a Maximum Point Blank Range of 320yds with my 130gr load. That means I don't have to think about yardage out to 320yds, just hold dead on. Take a 270Win, and that distance drops to 275yds. Moreover, at 400yds, the 270Win is almost 2MOA more drop than the 270Wby. What does that mean in real life? It means you can hold dead on for most shots, and hold "on hair" out beyond 400yds with the magnum, and you end up with greater than 100yds less "hold on hair" range with the standard chambering. In the field, when seconds count, knowing I'm good out to 300+ makes a difference. It even makes a difference with shorter distances. Take for instance the big buck I took in January of 2011. I threaded a shot through a tiny opening through thick woods 175yds to drop the buck, because I was confident my 270Wby would shoot flatly through the tiny opening (literally, a few inches of opening through the brush for the bullet to travel unobstructed, though I could clearly see the deer in the trees, so the shot was safe). I don't know that a 270Win would make the same threading possible. All the comments about bullet mass and energy are dead-on, as well.

There's an old drag racer's saying that applies here: There's no replacement for displacement. (Translation - There is no substitute for cubic inches!)

As for the efficiency argument, I understand it, but it's a bogus argument. Using feet per second per grain of powder per grain of bullet (the only fair comparison that accounts for cartridge volume, velocity, and projectile weight), the most efficient 30cal is my 30-30WCF. And yet I'd rather have a 30-06 for a 300yd shot any day. And, in fact, I'd rather have my 300Wby for the 300yd shot, truth be told, because I could just hold dead on the vitals and squeeze the trigger, rather than holding over or dialing up with the -06. In the field, conditions aren't friendly, and my experience says, eliminating variables and time stealers like dialing up, or figuring holdover, makes you more likely to take game. I still carry my 30-30WCF every year. I just carry it when I know I'll be hunting a patch of woods where my shots will be close and the cover fairly open, so I don't have to worry about threading that rainbow trajectory through anything to get out 150yds to the deer.

You don't have to shoot magnums, for certain. But to decry them as a class is to miss the point altogether of their usefulness. Mark Twain once said, "If the only tool in your box is a hammer, all your problems will begin to look like nails." I prefer having the right tool for the job.

 

[338winmag]

Oh man I got to jump in. :mrgreen:

I like and use magnums because of the following:
1. I luv the names - is that just psychological - yup, and again I luv the names
2. I luv the extra umphh - yup, extra power - just call me "Tim The Tool Man Tailor"
3. I luv the extra teenie weenie ballistic stats - again might be psychological
4. I luv saying my main rifle's name out loud and in camp all the time - "338 WIN MAG !!!!!"
5. I luv saying my backup rifle's name out loud and in camp all the time - "7MM REM MAG !!!!!"

Yeah maybe I a little on the psychological magnum wagon, but I work hard for my money and want to have fun with it. Everytime I hear someone say 338 Win Mag or 7mm Rem Mag, I get all puffed up, shoulders get straight & square and a big smile comes over my face. So why magnums? I say cause of the feel good effect, regardless if it is psychological or not. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Oh yeah. Add everyting else that all my magnum brothers also have said too. :lol:

FYI\BTW - I reload for friends 270s and 30-06s. There are definitely some nice benefits in the reloading phase so nothing wrong there or hunting with them either. :grin:

 

[Wondermutt]

Well that's a first... sold your 270 and started using you're 06..... I'm getting a brain cramp on that one.

After crippling two elk and only recovering one with the 270, I went back to the 30-06. Never had that problem before nor after going back to the -06, once I sold the 270.

I am going to use the weapon that make the quickest most humane kill in my hands. For a elk rifle, I am going to use my 300RUM as it does that in my hands. When I go pig hunting, the 260 or 7mm-08 gets used as that does the job for me. If someone asks me why I use a magnum, I tell them... I do not ask a question and give some smug response because the answer does not suit me... carry on with that brain cramp :roll:

 

[OU812]

I was just curious why some folks go with magnum cartridges verses the standard .30-06 or .270 for long range big game hunting?

I see the energy charts, from Noslers 6th edition, pretty much show the heavier bullets hold up against the lighter mag bullets... and the 06 and 270 doesn't lag to far behind.

Thoughts?

What you say makes sense in is right in line with the laws of physics. To run a light mag bullets is not why I use a mag. I use a mag to run heavy bullets rather quickly and that is where the mags run off from the standard caliber rounds in the energy charts.

 

[Guest]

I'll argue that the mags run off at all bullet weights. Depending on the rounds being compared, sometimes it's the heavy bullets, sometimes it's the light bullets. For instance, I can get 3400+ out of a 130gr .277cal bullet in my 270Wby, and a 270Win is going to reliably run that bullet about 3k, for a gain of 400+ fps. With the 150gr bullets, I can get 3250fps from the 'bee and 2900-2950 is pretty well topped out for the Win, so the gain is only 300fps or so. But, if you move to something like a 30-06 to 300Wby comparison, the gains are more in the top end. It's all dependent on the specific comparison.

The logic holds true, overall, though - magnum rounds provide gains in velocity and energy resulting in flatter trajectories and harder hits at equal distances.

 

[Kodiak]

This discusion is one of the best of the year.

I use magnums sometimes and other times I don't.

I also believe in choosing a caliber that is well suited for the game hunted.

It all goes back to over 65 years of big-game hunting, and developing a respect for the animals I hunt.

Jim

 

[.300winmag]

I've only got one magnum in my safe, it's a .300 Win. Mag, I got it because I wanted something that I could really reach out and touch something with. I run 210 Berger's out of it at 2,940 FPS with an ES of 8 fps from my Hart 28" barrel. The thing is a tac driver for sure. I had a .338 Edge but it just sat in my safe and honestly, the only thing it would shoot was 250gr. Sierra game kings, so I sold it. My .300 does everything I need it to. It has 3/4 MOA out to 1,328 yards (on paper) and I have pushed it out to 1,542 yards and been right on. I have enough energy and velocity to shoot at game out to just under 1,200 yards (Which I never plan on doing but it's nice to know) and I get more barrel life out of it than a .300 RUM. I probably won't buy a larger caliber rifle unless I can scrape the funds up for one of the Big Five in Africa.

I have a custom '06 that I push 180gr Nosler Accubonds out of at 2900 and the external ballistics performance I get out of my .300 Win. Mag blows it out of the water. The '06 does it's job, don't get me wrong. I've taken elk from 7 yards to 643 yards with it. The performance out of my .300 however, just gives me that much more of an advantage, both ballistically and confidently.

 

[.300winmag]

Also, what's the hardest thing about long range shooting? WIND! There are only two ways I can think of to deal with wind.

1) Shoot a higher BC bullet at higher velocity.

2) Go out and shoot in the wind and learn how to judge it.

Sure I can shoot a 180 AccuBond out of my '06 at 2900fps, but I can shoot that same bullet at 3100fps out of my .300 and I get less wind drift. Assuming I make the same error in the wind for both rifles, my error off my point of aim will be less with the .300 because it is more forgiving due to the higher velocity.

 

[OU812]

You guys are making some great and valid points for both the magnum and non magnum calibers. I prefer to hit an animal (I'm thinking elk or the like here) with as much bullet, speed and energy as possible. That being said and to be honest at the ranges I would ever shoot an elk at a standard caliber has done me very well and would again, I just prefer more energy at the target and since I'm pretty recoil tolerant why not use a magnum.



Bill

 

[longguner]

I was just curious why some folks go with magnum cartridges verses the standard .30-06 or .270 for long range big game hunting?

I see the energy charts, from Noslers 6th edition, pretty much show the heavier bullets hold up against the lighter mag bullets... and the 06 and 270 doesn't lag to far behind.

Thoughts?

What you say makes sense in is right in line with the laws of physics. To run a light mag bullets is not why I use a mag. I use a mag to run heavy bullets rather quickly and that is where the mags run off from the standard caliber rounds in the energy charts.

Only heavier bullets aren't needed to kill the same thing other calibers can. What yardage are you guys shooting at when hunting..... 1K?

 

[longguner]

Well that's a first... sold your 270 and started using you're 06..... I'm getting a brain cramp on that one.

After crippling two elk and only recovering one with the 270, I went back to the 30-06. Never had that problem before nor after going back to the -06, once I sold the 270.

I am going to use the weapon that make the quickest most humane kill in my hands. For a elk rifle, I am going to use my 300RUM as it does that in my hands. When I go pig hunting, the 260 or 7mm-08 gets used as that does the job for me. If someone asks me why I use a magnum, I tell them... I do not ask a question and give some smug response because the answer does not suit me... carry on with that brain cramp :roll:

After crippling two elk and only recovering one with the 270,

Where did you shoot it?

 

[longguner]

150 grain .270 bullet has the same mass as a .338 200 grain bullet and both run our of steam at 600 yards with the same veloctiy.

Before I delve into why I do or do not use magnum rounds, let me just say that the statement above is patently false. In fact, unless you don't know what "mass" is, it's false on the face of it. Mass is a measure of the matter in a given object. It is correlated with weight, when subjected to varying levels of gravity. What that means is, a 150gr bullet has sufficient mass to produce a weight of 150gr in Earth's gravity. If we put that bullet into a spacecraft and launched it to Mars, it would maintain the same mass, but would vary in weight until its return to Earth. The 200gr bullet has a greater mass than the 150gr bullet by sheer virtue of it's greater weight measurement here on earth. It would, correspondingly, have a greater weight measurement in all other gravities (proportionally) until you achieve zero gravity, which is technically impossible, as we are acted upon by the gravity of the various bodies of the universe at all times, despite our ability to discern it. So, a 150gr bullet has, in fact, 75% of the mass of a 200gr bullet. To say otherwise is to defy the laws of physics.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I'll address the magnum issue. I shoot them. I also shoot non-magnums. On my bench at any given moment over the last 30 years, belonging to myself or friends of mine, I've had any combination of the following: 22lr, 243Win, 270Win, 270WSM, 270Wby, 7mm-08, 7mmRemMag, 30-30WCF, 308Win, 30-06, 300WinMag, 300Wby, 8x57, 338WinMag, 35Rem, 350RemMag, 44Mag, 444Marlin, 45LC, and 454Casull in various rifles of one type or another. All of them have their place and serve a purpose. In making a few classic comparisons, a 270Wby will shoot to a Maximum Point Blank Range of 320yds with my 130gr load. That means I don't have to think about yardage out to 320yds, just hold dead on. Take a 270Win, and that distance drops to 275yds. Moreover, at 400yds, the 270Win is almost 2MOA more drop than the 270Wby. What does that mean in real life? It means you can hold dead on for most shots, and hold "on hair" out beyond 400yds with the magnum, and you end up with greater than 100yds less "hold on hair" range with the standard chambering. In the field, when seconds count, knowing I'm good out to 300+ makes a difference. It even makes a difference with shorter distances. Take for instance the big buck I took in January of 2011. I threaded a shot through a tiny opening through thick woods 175yds to drop the buck, because I was confident my 270Wby would shoot flatly through the tiny opening (literally, a few inches of opening through the brush for the bullet to travel unobstructed, though I could clearly see the deer in the trees, so the shot was safe). I don't know that a 270Win would make the same threading possible. All the comments about bullet mass and energy are dead-on, as well.

There's an old drag racer's saying that applies here: There's no replacement for displacement. (Translation - There is no substitute for cubic inches!)

As for the efficiency argument, I understand it, but it's a bogus argument. Using feet per second per grain of powder per grain of bullet (the only fair comparison that accounts for cartridge volume, velocity, and projectile weight), the most efficient 30cal is my 30-30WCF. And yet I'd rather have a 30-06 for a 300yd shot any day. And, in fact, I'd rather have my 300Wby for the 300yd shot, truth be told, because I could just hold dead on the vitals and squeeze the trigger, rather than holding over or dialing up with the -06. In the field, conditions aren't friendly, and my experience says, eliminating variables and time stealers like dialing up, or figuring holdover, makes you more likely to take game. I still carry my 30-30WCF every year. I just carry it when I know I'll be hunting a patch of woods where my shots will be close and the cover fairly open, so I don't have to worry about threading that rainbow trajectory through anything to get out 150yds to the deer.

You don't have to shoot magnums, for certain. But to decry them as a class is to miss the point altogether of their usefulness. Mark Twain once said, "If the only tool in your box is a hammer, all your problems will begin to look like nails." I prefer having the right tool for the job.

let me just say that the statement above is patently false.

The engineers who designed the velocity/energy specs have my vote... sorry.

Sectional density is the key.....

 

[Dr. Vette]

The engineers who designed the velocity/energy specs have my vote... sorry.

Sectional density is the key.....

But sectional density isn't what you said or what Dubyam quoted.

You said that "150 grain .270 bullet has the same mass as a .338 200 grain bullet", Dubyam states that it's patently false and, unless I'm misreading you, you disagree with that.

To quote:
"In everyday usage, mass is often referred to as "weight", the units of which are often taken to be kilograms (for instance, a person's weight may be stated as 75 kg). In scientific use, however, the term "weight" refers to a different, yet related, property of matter. Weight is the gravitational force acting on a given body—which differs depending on the gravitational pull of the opposing body (e.g. a person's weight on Earth vs on the Moon) — while mass is an intrinsic property of that body that never changes. In other words, an object's weight depends on its environment, while its mass does not. On the surface of the Earth, an object with a mass of 50 kilograms weighs 491 Newtons; on the surface of the Moon, the same object still has a mass of 50 kilograms but weighs only 81.5 Newtons. Restated in mathematical terms, on the surface of the Earth, the weight w of an object is related to its mass m by w = mg, where g=9.80665 m s-2 is the Earth's gravitational field."

No matter what, 150 grains will never have the same mass as 200 grains.

Sectional density may be what you meant, but it's not what you said. :wink:

And you are correct that their sectional densities are quite close.