Why the disparity in the .338-06 vs .35 Whelen?

[taylorce1]

I was just thinking that 57.1 and 57.8 grains of RL-15 for max charges on the .338-06 and .35 Whelen respectively will be pretty close to a full case of powder. I was thinking as well that a .020 diameter difference didn't seem enough to cause the 400 fps velocity/pressure difference. Lastly I was hoping that when I run my M700 rifle same as the test rifle used by Hornady in .35 Whelen my velocities would come out closer to my .338-06.

The reason I'm considering using 200 grain bullet is I have a bunch of the Hornady's. I bought them to run through my Savage 99 in .358 Win and I've got a few Speer 180 FP as well, but nothing heavier. My plan is to shoot the 225 grain AccuBond or Sierras out of this rifle I really have no need for a heavier bullet at this time and if I do I'll carry my .375 Ruger.

I haven't reloaded for the Whelen yet as I picked up 300 rounds (same lot) of 200 grain Remington ammunition three years ago at Dicks for $9.99 a box. I got 60 rounds of loaded ammunition for what it was costing for 50 pieces of brass. It may be a little anemic when it comes to what a Whelen can do but I didn't think a deer or elk shot would complain. Plus it shoots sub MOA out of my rifle, so I never saw a need to change things up yet.

 

[DrMike]

$9.99 a box for the Remington factory ammunition was a steal. The brass alone will run you more than that now.

 

[taylorce1]

$9.99 a box for the Remington factory ammunition was a steal. The brass alone will run you more than that now.

Yes it is, that is why I bought every last box they had! Plus I have the Dick's card which gets me another 10% off of every purchase over $100. So I think I came out alright on that deal!

 

[DrMike]

I did something similar when I found a wee store in an out-of-the-way spot some years back. He had eleven or twelve boxes of Winchester .356, 250 grain ammunition. I negotiated until we were able to reach an acceptable price, and I took it all. It was not a popular cartridge, and someone had brought it in; they had not sold a box in quite a few years. My rifle shot the factory stuff quite well, and I saw no reason not to have it. I still have eight boxes of this ammunition stowed somewhere.

 

[SJB358]

I did something similar when I found a wee store in an out-of-the-way spot some years back. He had eleven or twelve boxes of Winchester .356, 250 grain ammunition. I negotiated until we were able to reach an acceptable price, and I took it all. It was not a popular cartridge, and someone had brought it in; they had not sold a box in quite a few years. My rifle shot the factory stuff quite well, and I saw no reason not to have it. I still have eight boxes of this ammunition stowed somewhere.

Figures, that is where all the good 250 Winchester ammo went to! :twisted:

 

[DrMike]

Yeah, but I knew you'd buy a 45-70 rather than a 356. Ergo, I scooped it up. :lol:

 

[Oldtrader3]

I was just thinking that 57.1 and 57.8 grains of RL-15 for max charges on the .338-06 and .35 Whelen respectively will be pretty close to a full case of powder. I was thinking as well that a .020 diameter difference didn't seem enough to cause the 400 fps velocity/pressure difference. Lastly I was hoping that when I run my M700 rifle same as the test rifle used by Hornady in .35 Whelen my velocities would come out closer to my .338-06.

Taylorforce, I am not picking on you but what are you talking about? Believe me there is not and never has been a 400 fps difference between the Whelen and the .338-06, certainly not with bullets of the same sectional debsity. You don't give numbers so it is hard to know what you are referring to? They are virtually the same with bullets of the same sectional densoty because they use the same case! Force physics on the bullet base makes the .35 slightly faster but not enough to worry about.

 

[SJB358]

Yeah, but I knew you'd buy a 45-70 rather than a 356. Ergo, I scooped it up. :lol:

Oh okay. That makes sense Mike. The 356's are sweet rifles.

 

[35 Whelen]

Here is a different twist on all of this . I just had a buddy stop by here and buy that Minox scope I had listed on here . He got to looking at my little Hawkeye .270 and kept saying I otta get one of them in 35 caliber as well . He has a Savage 99 made in 1957 in .358W with a reciever sight he uses to track deer here on snow and he says I otta just get one in .358Win and put a 2-8 on it and have them both in the truck with ONE box of shells for either gun????? For normal hunting early and late just use the scoped bolt action and for woods huntin close or trackin deer use the old 99 with both guns same caliber ............. CDNN had some Stainless Hawkeyes reasonable; so before he left here he had a new Minox scope . Two boxes of Nosler Customs, and had ordered a new Hawkeye in 358!!!! How do you guys like that for good old fashion lodgic!!!

 

[DrMike]

Earl,

The logic is impeccable, and the choice of cartridge is excellent. I surely like the .358 Winchester; it is a great cartridge. The Hawkeye handles well and balances easily when carried in the field.

 

[257 Ackley]

My issue with buying any .358 is the limitations of the bullet selections.

This is the reason I had my 7X64 Brenneke turned into a 338-06 instead of the Whelen 20 years ago. That, and we know that the .338-06 has better down-range ballistics .

 

[SJB358]

My issue with buying any .358 is the limitations of the bullet selections.

This is the reason I had my 7X64 Brenneke turned into a 338-06 instead of the Whelen 20 years ago. That, and we know that the .338-06 has better down-range ballistics .

Oh man- here we go!

 

[DrMike]

This is the reason I had my 7X64 Brenneke turned into a 338-06 instead of the Whelen 20 years ago. That, and we know that the .338-06 has better down-range ballistics .

Trouble maker!

 

[257 Ackley]

:mrgreen: Knew that one would get a rise out of the usual suspects!

 

[taylorce1]

I was just thinking that 57.1 and 57.8 grains of RL-15 for max charges on the .338-06 and .35 Whelen respectively will be pretty close to a full case of powder. I was thinking as well that a .020 diameter difference didn't seem enough to cause the 400 fps velocity/pressure difference. Lastly I was hoping that when I run my M700 rifle same as the test rifle used by Hornady in .35 Whelen my velocities would come out closer to my .338-06.

Taylorforce, I am not picking on you but what are you talking about? Believe me there is not and never has been a 400 fps difference between the Whelen and the .338-06, certainly not with bullets of the same sectional debsity. You don't give numbers so it is hard to know what you are referring to? They are virtually the same with bullets of the same sectional densoty because they use the same case! Force physics on the bullet base makes the .35 slightly faster but not enough to worry about.

I don't think you are picking on me at all, I was just quoting numbers I found in Hornady's manual. Hornady list 2900 fps for the .338 and 2500 fps for the Whelen with max loads of 57.1 for the .338 and 57.8 grians for the Whelen with RL-15. I was just amazed to find such a big gap between the two when they are so similar.

 

[JD338]

If the Whelen was loaded to the same pressure as the 338-06, the velocity difference would me much closer.

JD338

 

[Oldtrader3]

Ok, I understand now, Taylorforce. The factory loads for Whelans are loaded down. If you handload, you can get about 2600 fps withthe .338-06, 225 gr and about nearly 2500 fps with the .35 Whelen, 250 gr bullet. They are only about 100 fps apart, if you load. Many older loads from before WWII are lawyered down to reflect being chambered in an 1888 Mauser or something that will not take the pressures. However, in today's modern actions, there should not be much difference betwee\n the two cartridges.

I nearly ever look at factory ballstics and that generated my question.

 

[SJB358]

I would like to see QL data between the 250 PT in the Whelen and 225 PT in the 338-06. Both loaded to 65,000 PSI. Just to get a True picture. I would think that would look pretty similar for both. I will have to look but I think Mike ran the 250 data for me and it was pretty good stuff.

 

[JD338]

OT3,

FWIW, my M700 Classic 35 Whelen with a 22" barrel is puching a 250 gr PT at 2580 fps.

JD338

 

[Oldtrader3]

That is what I would have guessed seeing as how the .35 Whelen has a little extra area to push on the bottom of the bullet, it should be abouit the same or even slightly faster than the .338-06.

Compare the 180 gr .308 to the .338 Federal and the .338 Federal will exceed to .308 by some few fps at the same PSI. That was my only point with all of this.