Why the disparity in the .338-06 vs .35 Whelen?

[DrMike]

Here are the numbers for a 22 inch barrel, 35 Whelen shooting a 250 grain Nosler Partition, using VN550:

Cartridge : .35 Whelen
Bullet : .358, 250, Nosler PART SP 44801
Useable Case Capaci: 59.664 grain H2O = 3.874 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N550

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 90 50.40 2084 2410 31078 7039 89.1 1.477
-18.0 92 51.66 2138 2538 33315 7268 90.4 1.434
-16.0 94 52.92 2193 2669 35729 7489 91.6 1.393
-14.0 96 54.18 2247 2804 38333 7703 92.8 1.350
-12.0 99 55.44 2302 2943 41146 7908 93.9 1.307
-10.0 101 56.70 2357 3085 44189 8102 94.9 1.265
-08.0 103 57.96 2413 3231 47483 8286 95.8 1.225
-06.0 105 59.22 2468 3381 51058 8457 96.6 1.186
-04.0 108 60.48 2524 3535 54930 8616 97.4 1.148
-02.0 110 61.74 2579 3692 59167 8760 98.0 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 112 63.00 2635 3853 63744 8890 98.6 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 114 64.26 2690 4017 68713 9004 99.1 1.043 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 117 65.52 2746 4185 74135 9101 99.4 1.011 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 119 66.78 2801 4356 80065 9180 99.7 0.979 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 121 68.04 2857 4531 86566 9241 99.9 0.949 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 123 69.30 2912 4709 93716 9281 100.0 0.919 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 112 63.00 2757 4219 77816 8612 100.0 0.998 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 112 63.00 2465 3373 50742 8684 92.7 1.183

The same data, except substituting H414, gives similar results:

Cartridge : .35 Whelen
Bullet : .358, 250, Nosler PART SP 44801
Useable Case Capaci: 59.664 grain H2O = 3.874 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H414

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 87 50.80 2061 2359 30969 6867 84.5 1.475
-18.0 90 52.07 2116 2486 33189 7109 85.9 1.432
-16.0 92 53.34 2172 2618 35580 7345 87.3 1.391
-14.0 94 54.61 2227 2754 38161 7575 88.7 1.349
-12.0 96 55.88 2283 2894 40949 7798 90.0 1.305
-10.0 98 57.15 2340 3039 43965 8012 91.2 1.263
-08.0 100 58.42 2396 3188 47231 8217 92.4 1.222
-06.0 103 59.69 2453 3341 50776 8411 93.4 1.183
-04.0 105 60.96 2511 3499 54628 8594 94.4 1.145
-02.0 107 62.23 2568 3661 58820 8764 95.4 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 109 63.50 2626 3827 63398 8921 96.2 1.073 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 111 64.77 2684 3998 68394 9063 97.0 1.039 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 114 66.04 2742 4173 73891 9189 97.7 1.006 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 116 67.31 2800 4353 79925 9298 98.3 0.974 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 118 68.58 2859 4537 86577 9389 98.8 0.943 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 120 69.85 2918 4725 93945 9460 99.2 0.913 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 109 63.50 2764 4240 77427 8849 99.7 0.993 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 109 63.50 2445 3318 51198 8517 88.6 1.178

The 338-06, shooting a 225 grain Nosler PT and also using H141, generates the following data:

Cartridge : .338-06 A-Square
Bullet : .338, 225, Nosler PART SP 16336
Useable Case Capaci: 58.686 grain H2O = 3.810 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H414

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 85 48.40 2118 2240 31573 7495 86.7 1.472
-18.0 87 49.61 2173 2359 33799 7749 88.0 1.430
-16.0 89 50.82 2228 2481 36193 7996 89.4 1.390
-14.0 91 52.03 2284 2607 38768 8237 90.6 1.347
-12.0 93 53.24 2340 2736 41542 8468 91.8 1.304
-10.0 95 54.45 2397 2869 44530 8690 92.9 1.263
-08.0 97 55.66 2453 3006 47758 8901 94.0 1.223
-06.0 99 56.87 2510 3147 51244 9100 95.0 1.185
-04.0 102 58.08 2566 3291 55017 9287 95.8 1.148
-02.0 104 59.29 2623 3438 59106 9460 96.7 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 106 60.50 2680 3589 63546 9618 97.4 1.078 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 108 61.71 2737 3743 68375 9761 98.0 1.044 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 110 62.92 2794 3901 73635 9886 98.6 1.012 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 112 64.13 2851 4062 79381 9994 99.0 0.981 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 114 65.34 2909 4226 85631 10082 99.4 0.950 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 116 66.55 2966 4394 92471 10151 99.7 0.921 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 106 60.50 2812 3951 77307 9447 100.0 0.998 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 106 60.50 2503 3131 51206 9274 90.6 1.182

Using VN550, the data looks like this:

Cartridge : .338-06 A-Square
Bullet : .338, 225, Nosler PART SP 16336
Useable Case Capaci: 58.686 grain H2O = 3.810 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N550

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 87 48.00 2137 2282 31843 7634 91.0 1.475
-18.0 89 49.20 2191 2399 34110 7872 92.2 1.433
-16.0 91 50.40 2246 2520 36547 8101 93.3 1.392
-14.0 93 51.60 2301 2645 39171 8321 94.4 1.349
-12.0 96 52.80 2356 2772 41998 8530 95.3 1.306
-10.0 98 54.00 2410 2903 45046 8728 96.2 1.265
-08.0 100 55.20 2465 3036 48320 8914 97.0 1.226
-06.0 102 56.40 2520 3173 51821 9087 97.7 1.188
-04.0 104 57.60 2575 3312 55591 9245 98.3 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 106 58.80 2629 3454 59657 9389 98.9 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 109 60.00 2684 3599 64051 9516 99.3 1.082 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 111 61.20 2738 3746 68805 9626 99.6 1.049 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 113 62.40 2793 3896 73957 9719 99.8 1.017 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 115 63.60 2847 4049 79552 9793 100.0 0.987 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 117 64.80 2901 4204 85639 9847 100.0 0.957 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 119 66.00 2955 4361 92277 9892 100.0 0.928 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 109 60.00 2800 3916 77634 9165 100.0 1.003 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 109 60.00 2520 3172 51075 9393 94.3 1.187

Using the lighter bullet, the 338-06 generates marginally higher velocity. If the 338-06 is shooting a 250 grain Nosler Partition, the velocity generated with the same powders is considerably lower than the velocity generated for the 35 Whelen shooting the same weight bullet.

Cartridge : .338-06 A-Square
Bullet : .338, 250, Nosler PART SP 35644
Useable Case Capaci: 56.978 grain H2O = 3.700 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H414

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 83 46.00 2010 2243 31655 7318 88.7 1.548
-18.0 85 47.15 2061 2359 33850 7555 90.0 1.505
-16.0 87 48.30 2113 2478 36203 7785 91.2 1.462
-14.0 89 49.45 2164 2600 38729 8008 92.3 1.418
-12.0 91 50.60 2216 2726 41444 8221 93.4 1.374
-10.0 93 51.75 2268 2855 44363 8426 94.4 1.331
-08.0 95 52.90 2320 2987 47504 8619 95.3 1.290
-06.0 97 54.05 2372 3122 50889 8801 96.1 1.251
-04.0 99 55.20 2423 3260 54541 8971 96.9 1.213
-02.0 101 56.35 2475 3402 58486 9127 97.6 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 103 57.50 2527 3546 62756 9269 98.2 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 106 58.65 2579 3693 67377 9397 98.7 1.107 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 108 59.80 2631 3843 72361 9508 99.1 1.074 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 110 60.95 2683 3996 77759 9603 99.5 1.042 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 112 62.10 2735 4151 83625 9680 99.7 1.011 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 114 63.25 2786 4309 90013 9738 99.9 0.981 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 103 57.50 2644 3881 76079 9011 100.0 1.058 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 103 57.50 2367 3111 50526 9028 92.1 1.250

Cartridge : .338-06 A-Square
Bullet : .338, 250, Nosler PART SP 35644
Useable Case Capaci: 56.978 grain H2O = 3.700 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N550

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 85 45.60 2026 2280 32007 7418 92.7 1.550
-18.0 87 46.74 2077 2394 34250 7638 93.8 1.507
-16.0 89 47.88 2127 2512 36657 7848 94.8 1.464
-14.0 91 49.02 2177 2632 39244 8050 95.7 1.420
-12.0 93 50.16 2228 2755 42013 8240 96.6 1.376
-10.0 96 51.30 2278 2881 44960 8420 97.3 1.334
-08.0 98 52.44 2328 3009 48107 8588 98.0 1.293
-06.0 100 53.58 2378 3140 51485 8742 98.5 1.254
-04.0 102 54.72 2428 3273 55112 8883 99.0 1.217
-02.0 104 55.86 2478 3409 59013 9010 99.4 1.181 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 106 57.00 2528 3546 63211 9122 99.7 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 108 58.14 2577 3687 67735 9217 99.9 1.112 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 110 59.28 2626 3829 72617 9296 100.0 1.080 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 113 60.42 2675 3973 77895 9359 100.0 1.048 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 115 61.56 2724 4119 83610 9415 100.0 1.018 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 117 62.70 2772 4267 89812 9468 100.0 0.989 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 106 57.00 2629 3836 76338 8750 100.0 1.065 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 106 57.00 2381 3146 50542 9103 95.5 1.255

 

[JD338]

Yup, it was spelled out earlier as the bore expansion ratio.

JD338

 

[Oldtrader3]

Yup, bore expansion ratio is where the answer lies. That is why I always check that before reading factory ammo tables. Wish that I could remember where I put my Powley Computer? However, I do have it online.

 

[SJB358]

Very awesome data Mike. It looks pretty danged good for both of them. Seems either way you slice it, they are both awesome. These are some good times we live in to have the great choices. Makes me wanna go shoot the Whelen.

 

[DrMike]

That is a lot of mass smashing onto target at pretty good velocity; it's going to do some damage.

 

[CatskillCrawler]

Been following this thread with great interest because either of these two cartridges are my next folly. Very interesting comparison which leaves me no closer to a decision than before. :?

 

[DrMike]

You wouldn't be disappointed with either cartridge. My hunting partner shoots a 338-06 quite frequently. Long story short, it just works with game here in BC. The Whelen is equally effective when it is unleashed.

 

[JD338]

This has been a really good post and the information has been both informative and entertaining.
I think the 338-06 and the 35 Whelen are both terrific cartridges that offer very similar performance. The 35 Whelen will shoot slightly faster than the 338-06. The 338-06 will penetrate deeper than the 35 Whelen but the 35 Whelen will have wider expanded bullets and wounds. Differences yes, but not enough to really matter on big game.

Just my thoughts.....

JD338

 

[gerry]

I thought about the 338-06, 35 Whelen and 9.3x62, all are good with each having some kind of slight advantage over the other. Really like my 35 Whelen it does everthing I could want in a cartridge plus you can readily but headstamped brass and factory loads easier than the 338-06. Had I built a 9.3x62 I'm sure it would be great and wouldn't likely own a 35 Whelen now, have no regrets about owning a Whelen. Bottom line is like others have said no animal would ever notice the difference betwwen them all.

 

[257 Ackley]

Gotta agree with you Whelen guys...they both are awesome. I need to verify a load I worked up with 225 grain deep curls and shoot them over my chrony to see what velocity they were going. This was using 59 grains of H414 in Nosler cases. I have a really long throat in this Sako, so they were seated at 3.494. All the shots were touching, but none were through the same hole. 60 grains opened up to a little over MOA, and there is slight pressure signs. Runs pretty close to what Mike posted for QL and the 225 Partitions for max load.

 

[257 Ackley]

I thought about the 338-06, 35 Whelen and 9.3x62, all are good with each having some kind of slight advantage over the other. Really like my 35 Whelen it does everthing I could want in a cartridge plus you can readily but headstamped brass and factory loads easier than the 338-06. Had I built a 9.3x62 I'm sure it would be great and wouldn't likely own a 35 Whelen now, have no regrets about owning a Whelen. Bottom line is like others have said no animal would ever notice the difference betwwen them all.

Nosler now sells correctly head stamped brass for 338-06. Might have to buy some if I can ever wear out the 30-06 Nosler brass I bought when this rifle was built.

 

[35 Whelen]

Excellent stuff Mike! Thanks for that data very interesting stuff!! Can we now sum this all up by saying this from your quote as follows:

"Using the lighter bullet, the 338-06 generates marginally higher velocity. If the 338-06 is shooting a 250 grain Nosler Partition, the velocity generated with the same powders is considerably lower than the velocity generated for the 35 Whelen shooting the same weight bullet."
So lets try this :wink:
If you wanted to shoot bullet weights down in the 210 gr range then stay with your 338/06 but if you are more interested in shooting bullet weights in the 250gr range then stick with the Whelen?
Are we all in agreement that statement is true????

Not sure what twist barrels that Townsend had on his rifle but I do seam to remember him printing back in that "Dec 1956 American Rifleman" that the 35 Whelen really only comes into its own with 250gr bullets and heavyer and that it was ballistically just a 350 Rigby in an American disguise......................[No I am not old enough to have read it back then; as that is the year I was born!]

Of course the Rigby has a 100 year old reputation. And many thousands of Lions, Kudu, Eland and plenty of Cape Buffs to its credit and was known in Africa during its hayday as a proven performer; long before, some of us were ever thought of...........................

Ackley your up late..............

 

[DrMike]

Earl,

I believe that is an excellent assessment of the data.

Joel,

I do like that Nosler is producing the 338-06 brass; but man, packaging 25 to a box makes the cost steep! It is why I passed on buying Nosler 300 WSM brass.

 

[gerry]

Nosler now sells correctly head stamped brass for 338-06. Might have to buy some if I can ever wear out the 30-06 Nosler brass I bought when this rifle was built.

Did not know that, thanks.

The other thing I like about the 35 Whelen is it is a classic cartridge, it is hard to define but there is just something about it that stirs something inside. Ofcourse this doesn't mean it kills any better than anything else. Other rounds that have "it" that come to mind are, 257 Roberts and the 375 H&H and others as well.

 

[257 Ackley]

Earl,

I believe that is an excellent assessment of the data.

Joel,

I do like that Nosler is producing the 338-06 brass; but man, packaging 25 to a box makes the cost steep! It is why I passed on buying Nosler 300 WSM brass.

Like I said...the 30-06 brass I bought a loooong time ago is still working great and has tight primer pockets with maybe 2 trimmings. The problem I am having with Winchester brass is how inconsistent it has become and I don't care for Remmy brass. That doesn't leave alot of choices for some of the calibers we shoot. I had 7 cases from the last bag of 50 Winchester 270WSM cases that would not fit in the shell holder. Cases look like they were picked up off a battle field somewhere also. I would have paid extra for Nosler brass to have some consistency. it still wouldn't have been head-stamped correctly for the darn 264 WSM, but what the heck :lol: .

 

[JD338]

Excellent stuff Mike! Thanks for that data very interesting stuff!! Can we now sum this all up by saying this from your quote as follows:

"Using the lighter bullet, the 338-06 generates marginally higher velocity. If the 338-06 is shooting a 250 grain Nosler Partition, the velocity generated with the same powders is considerably lower than the velocity generated for the 35 Whelen shooting the same weight bullet."
So lets try this :wink:
If you wanted to shoot bullet weights down in the 210 gr range then stay with your 338/06 but if you are more interested in shooting bullet weights in the 250gr range then stick with the Whelen?
Are we all in agreement that statement is true????

Not sure what twist barrels that Townsend had on his rifle but I do seam to remember him printing back in that "Dec 1956 American Rifleman" that the 35 Whelen really only comes into its own with 250gr bullets and heavyer and that it was ballistically just a 350 Rigby in an American disguise......................[No I am not old enough to have read it back then; as that is the year I was born!]

Of course the Rigby has a 100 year old reputation. And many thousands of Lions, Kudu, Eland and plenty of Cape Buffs to its credit and was known in Africa during its hayday as a proven performer; long before, some of us were ever thought of...........................

Ackley your up late..............

Earl,

Excellent summary, you nailed it.

JD338

 

[Oldtrader3]

What I have been able to find about the early model .35 Whelen chambers, most of them were 1 in 16 inches (early Remington SAAMI Spec), although some of them were made to 1:12 twist.

I would support using a 210 bullet in a .338-06 seeing as how Nosler has been making the 210 grain Partition for at least 40 years as a well tested bullet for the .338 bores. My particular .338 rifles shoot the 225 gr Partition better (more accurately) then the 210 but either weight is certainly viable.

For the .35 Whelen, the 250 gr bullet has always been the standard, except maybe for some of the early 1:16 twist barrels that may not shoot a 250 gr well in it. The older 200 grain .358 bullet was used in some 1 in 16 twist barrel years ago for the .35 Rem.

 

[DrMike]

I had 7 cases from the last bag of 50 Winchester 270WSM cases that would not fit in the shell holder. Cases look like they were picked up off a battle field somewhere also.

That's an accurate observation, Joel. The No. 6 Redding Shell Holder has somewhat tighter tolerances than the No. 43 RCBS Shell Holder. I use the RCBS shell holder preferentially, just because it will hold the cases. The Redding shell holder kicks out a large number of the cases.

 

[JD338]

OT3,

My M700 Classic has a 1:16 twist and shoots the 250 gr bullets under MOA. Same accuracy with the 200 gr and 225 gr bullets too.

JD338

 

[257 Ackley]

I had 7 cases from the last bag of 50 Winchester 270WSM cases that would not fit in the shell holder. Cases look like they were picked up off a battle field somewhere also.

That's an accurate observation, Joel. The No. 6 Redding Shell Holder has somewhat tighter tolerances than the No. 43 RCBS Shell Holder. I use the RCBS shell holder preferentially, just because it will hold the cases. The Redding shell holder kicks out a large number of the cases.

Good to know Mike...since all dies purchased in the last 10 years have been Redding, I haven't been using RCBS shell holders. I need to pick up an RCBS for the WSM's and see if it will accept the ones I have been saving to send to Winchester :roll: .