Why the disparity in the .338-06 vs .35 Whelen?

[Oldtrader3]

OT3,

My M700 Classic has a 1:16 twist and shoots the 250 gr bullets under MOA. Same accuracy with the 200 gr and 225 gr bullets too.

JD338

Good to know, I know that some of the earlier 700's had the slower twist.

 

[SJB358]

Earl,

I believe that is an excellent assessment of the data.

Joel,

I do like that Nosler is producing the 338-06 brass; but man, packaging 25 to a box makes the cost steep! It is why I passed on buying Nosler 300 WSM brass.

Like I said...the 30-06 brass I bought a loooong time ago is still working great and has tight primer pockets with maybe 2 trimmings. The problem I am having with Winchester brass is how inconsistent it has become and I don't care for Remmy brass. That doesn't leave alot of choices for some of the calibers we shoot. I had 7 cases from the last bag of 50 Winchester 270WSM cases that would not fit in the shell holder. Cases look like they were picked up off a battle field somewhere also. I would have paid extra for Nosler brass to have some consistency. it still wouldn't have been head-stamped correctly for the darn 264 WSM, but what the heck :lol: .

Same here, discarded 3-4 300WSM cases of the latest batch of WW brass. Pretty sure I will be going with Norma sooner rather than later. It can be had for a decent price and if it lasts, it'll work. Funny thing is I lost at least that many or more out of the 7WSM WW brass as well. Scotty

 

[SJB358]

You wouldn't be disappointed with either cartridge.

CC you will be LESS disapointed with the 35 Whelen! No sense in just going 338, might as well go all the way. It is kinda like chewing your piece of finely aged steak and spitting it out... HA!

 

[SJB358]

OT3,

My M700 Classic has a 1:16 twist and shoots the 250 gr bullets under MOA. Same accuracy with the 200 gr and 225 gr bullets too.

JD338

Same here. The 1-16" works pretty danged good in my Whelen. Only used the 250 PT's and 250 Speer Hot Cors. Both are extremely good bullets that shoot well. I was a little worried till I started load work with them.

 

[SJB358]

I had 7 cases from the last bag of 50 Winchester 270WSM cases that would not fit in the shell holder. Cases look like they were picked up off a battle field somewhere also.

That's an accurate observation, Joel. The No. 6 Redding Shell Holder has somewhat tighter tolerances than the No. 43 RCBS Shell Holder. I use the RCBS shell holder preferentially, just because it will hold the cases. The Redding shell holder kicks out a large number of the cases.

Good to know Mike...since all dies purchased in the last 10 years have been Redding, I haven't been using RCBS shell holders. I need to pick up an RCBS for the WSM's and see if it will accept the ones I have been saving to send to Winchester :roll: .

Or, you could just get a Forster and forget about them silly shellholders! :shock:

 

[DrMike]

For my own work, I use my Forster exclusively. When working on someone else's cartridge, I use a Redding T7 press and they supply the dies. I've just learned that RCBS dies are more likely to capture brass, whereas Redding is more likely not to accept a case. This is especially true with the WSM cases.

 

[257 Ackley]

Or, you could just get a Forster and forget about them silly shellholders! :shock:[/quote]

I'm kinda attached to the old Rockchucker that I have had for about 30 years :roll: . I know there are improvements that I can make to some of my reloading equipment, just have to find time and money to do it. The powder dispenser we have discussed comes first.

 

[SJB358]

Or, you could just get a Forster and forget about them silly shellholders! :shock:

I'm kinda attached to the old Rockchucker that I have had for about 30 years :roll: . I know there are improvements that I can make to some of my reloading equipment, just have to find time and money to do it. The powder dispenser we have discussed comes first.[/quote]

Good point buddy. I actually need to grab that other shellholder Mike mentioned as my bullet puller press is an older RCBS Partner press. That press stays set up with the bullet puller in it. Works excellent for me. The Forster gets the loading duties nowadays.

 

[taylorce1]

Been following this thread with great interest because either of these two cartridges are my next folly. Very interesting comparison which leaves me no closer to a decision than before. :?

I'm building another .338-06 even though I don't need it. I like the cartridge a little better than the Whelen just for bullet options. I love the way my current .338-06 shoots just don't like the weight. So I've picked up a McMillan Hunters Edge stock, .30-06 Winchester Classic action and PT&G bottom metal. Going to use a #3 contour barrel around 22-23" long on this one. Hoping to come in around 8 lbs all up.

 

[35 Whelen]

Well my Hawkeye is just that 8 lbs [actually 8.1oz] scoped with the 2/8 Conquest and Ruger mounts........... not much to look at as far a beauty is consirned but probably one of the nicest functional guns out there for any money............... has everything my pre 64 has except the extra cartridge in the mag and I have no idea why they didnt do that too??? Probably the same reason Nosler didnt build a 300gr bullet for the 358 ????? Go figure!

:grin:

 

[DrMike]

Earl,

How does your Whelen perform? Mine seemed incapable of consistently breaking the MOA barrier. I finally, reluctantly, rebarrelled it with a faster twist. I'll see if that tightens the group size with heavier bullets.

 

[35 Whelen]

Mike I almost hate to say on here as all of you guys on here can out shoot me no problem!!! I was telling Scotty that yesterday that I had some found some very very old W748 and have an abundance of Sierra 225 BTs that I dont like to shoot at game.I got bored yesterday; so having never used 748 before in the Whelen, and had no data on it, so I just tryed 56gr/57/58gr to see how it handles that powder . I did not use mag primers like I normally do and got pleasently surprised as they all shot fine but the 58gr load shot an honest 1 1/4" 3 shot group off from a very icy bench from a lead sled. Which probably seams pretty oh hum on here but I was real happy with that.
But I realize after seeing all these posts of everyone shooting 1/2" groups all day long; that I am lagging way behind some of you pros on here................. but for general hunting, with a factory set up gun, I thought the Hawkeye preformed great for me. I have shot some slightly better groups with it off a better set up with 58.5 grains of RL-15,using that same bullet, but have never been able to quite shoot an honest 1" group with it.[Yet] I did break the barrel in by starting with an ultra clean barrel and kept spraying WD40 down the bore and recleaning it ever couple rounds thu the first 50 shots, and dont know if that helped me there or not, but I am compleatly satisfied with the gun in all ways. To directly answer your question it shoots 250gr Speer Spitzers >>1.5/6/7"<< at 100yds from a good rest, so not sure how that compares to yours??? .............. shoots the 225 better on paper but I like the 250 better for most hunting .

 

[SJB358]

There is nothing shabby about 1.25" groups with the Whelen at all. Heck, I know alot of us post pictures of good 1/2 to 1" targets, but I doubt there are many souls on here that can hold that kind of accuracy in the field where it counts.

I never thought of W748 at all for the Whelen. Don't know why, but I didn't? It should be another good one really good powder in the Whelen. It does work excellent in the 358 and I have found, they really share their love of powders between the two of them, with the 358 liking a little faster powder, but they could easily interchange for powders if needed.

I like that rifle. Looks all business to me. That 2-8 Zeiss is one I have never found. I will have to stick with the 1.5x8 or 2-10 Minox's I guess! Scotty

 

[DrMike]

I admit that I've been spoiled. Almost all my rifles will shoot MOA, and most give me 0.5 inches or better at 100 yards. Not a few are honest .25 inch rifles. Truthfully, and in my heart, I know that a 1.5 inch gun will take game very well at reasonable yardages. The old timers took a number of moose with the 30-30 and the 303 for years, but they were hunters and not shooters. I still average not much more than 100 yards for most of my shots, and at that range, a two inch load would work just fine. However, I'm spoiled, and I like to see my rifles perform spectacularly. I had hoped that my Hawkeye 35 Whelen would perform at least as well as the Hawkeye 358 performed, and it didn't. It would shoot 200 grain bullets into tiny little groups, but it hated the 250 grain bullets and was so-so about the 225 grain bullets. I determined that I would rebarrel it, and that is what has happened to it. Hopefully, it will serve to give me somewhat better groups. Consequently, with the heavier bullets, W748 would be a good powder for the Whelen.

 

[35 Whelen]

Wow 1/4" groups is something I never even dream about . And I only own one gun that will shoot less than an inch and I need to be on a rock solid platform to see it do that.................. shooting off from an icy bench made of 4 two by fours screwed to a piece of 1/2 chipboard is certainly not the sorta bench I could ever hope to see a 3/4" groups from it either..........
I have to agree with you though Mike mine also seams to shoot the 225s a little better than it does the 250s[I have actually never even messed with 200gr bullets in it] but to be honest with you the extra half and inch difference is really a non issue with us for general hunting. My old standby the Model 70 Featherweight in 06 wont shoot any better than that either .................. inch and a half; to 1 3/4" as the barrel starts to heat up[yet I probably shot the heads off a dozen partridge with it from 20-40 yds this past fall] .......... my 270 Hawkeye is a little better; but usually is more like inch and quarter; except on its best days it is just at <1"> groups. The older MarkII in .243 will however shoot under the inch; but just barely..............
In practical terms it translates to this however: I live up on a ridge and the river is directly down below me, the side closest to me is 250 yds and the woods on the far side of the river are exactly 315 yds away ............ I keep bait tied to the trees on the far side and shoot on avg 15 coyotes a year down there; with the 243 or the 270 no problem; so that is really as demanding as I am on a gun. When I first went out West everyone in Montana was shooting prariedogs in the head with their 22-250 with heavy barrels at 200yds ............those same guys commonly shot coyotes at 400yds; with 25-06's so I think they generally were better shots than the easteners were. As we where used to watching them struggle to shoot 3 "/ 4" groups with their 742s and Tasco scopes on see thru mounts! I am in the process of changing the scope out on the 270 at the moment; to add a new Zeiss 3-9 with the "Rapid Z reticule" on it . I do see coyotes over on our airstrip; above the rivers far side, it is exactly 450 yds to the center of the airstrip, from my window here in the mancave. I will let you know how well that reticule works the first time I see a songdog go strollin down there shortly!
I am afraid, I too Mike, also probably fall more into that hunter group, than the shooter group............

Exactly what size groups did you actually see with the 250s ????

 

[DrMike]

My Remington Classic was an honest MOA shooter with 225 grain ABs. When I look over my data, I may have been harsh on the Hawkeye. It was giving me 0.73 inches with 225 grain TSX and MOA with Woodleigh 250 grain RN. However, the velocities weren't what I wanted. Hey, I still have the old Ruger barrel, so I can always change back.

 

[SJB358]

My Remington Classic was an honest MOA shooter with 225 grain ABs. When I look over my data, I may have been harsh on the Hawkeye. It was giving me 0.73 inches with 225 grain TSX and MOA with Woodleigh 250 grain RN. However, the velocities weren't what I wanted. Hey, I still have the old Ruger barrel, so I can always change back.

I would almost be surprised if RL15 didn't work for you in the new barrel Mike. I know every rifle is a law unto itself, but there are so many Whelens I hear about that shoot the same loads as me that just rave about it. If I was to try again, I would look at Varget. That's the other that seems like it should work well. Who knows, I'm still a rookie compared to you all.

 

[DrMike]

Undoubtedly, RL15 will receive more than a casual glance. I also want to look at Benchmark and Varget, either of which is within the appropriate burn rate for projectile weights.

 

[35 Whelen]

Uncle Mike, if you unscrewed a barrel that gave you 3/4" groups with 225s and an honest 1" groups with 250s because it wasnt up to standards, with all due respect I gotta say "Your a Hard Man Magee"... you set the bar; pretty darn high pardner! :shock: I certainly respect your decision, and look forward to hearing how much better the new barrel handles heavyer bullets??
Well I am actually going to take my little Chrony out; next time I shoot the Whelen, and I will give you an update on how the 748 stacks up in the Ruger; against the RL15 powder. It shot fine but I have no way of knowing what kinda volicitys it was actually getting outta that little 22" barrel????
It is no secret around here that 2700fps; is very commonly reported with the RL powder, with the 225 gr bullets, so it will be interesting to see if the 748 stacks up?? . That powder is from the early 1980s, I found down under the bench that my Dad had . So I have no idea how the age could effect the powder??? It sure seamed to feel normal to me?? One of the guides that works for us went out the other day to shoot the Whelen for fun; and after I got done with it on a target; I passed it to him to play with, and it was exactly -10 below zero F on the mirror in the truck; so I dont know how that effected the rocks he picked to shoot at with those 225s??[They would obviously be much more brittle] But I can tell you that at 75 yds; rocks about foot square, that probably weighed 50lbs each, seamed to literally disapear and shattered into dozens of pieces with a spectacular display of flying pieces, and smoke everytime he shot at one ....................[I am thinking the very cold temps; had alot to do with the impressive explosive type results?] He got a heck of a kick outta the results;[literally] and is now a confirmed believer in the "Colonel"............ when he was done he said to me still chuckling; "that thing hits more like, drilling the rocks, and inserting a 1/8 stick of dynamite into them,than shooting at them with a rifle!
:mrgreen:

 

[DrMike]

Earl,

We'll see if I made the right decision. My decision was based in part on the fact that the velocities tended to be low and accuracy was not as consistent as I wanted. I had some extra credit built up, so I made the decision. We'll see. In any case, by making this choice, I'll definitely be committed to this rifle.

Your 748 should be fine so long as it didn't pick up moisture or get overly warm. If there was no sign of dust accumulation from oxidation, no apparent acrid odour and no obvious colour change in the propellant, I'm sure it will be fine. I've used some powders that are that old or older. On the other hand, I've had people give me powders that were much newer, but had been improperly stored. Such powders served as fertilizer for my wife's strawberries.