Youth rifle suggestions
- Thread starter YoteSmoker
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Gotta love the innernet!
cloverleaf
Handloader
- Sep 10, 2006
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Stock fit is key. Good recoil pad, on a stock thats short enough for it. Hearing protection for practice, and a smaller calibre for a pre-teen IMHO. 223 will take yotes just fine. That said if you only want to buy one rifle get a 243 and do a lot of shooting with the good old .22 I err on the small side of cal. for a starting shooter. CL
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
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YS lives in Colorado.
It's implied.
It's implied.
My BIL bought my nephew a savage youth in .243 , he used it this year to take his first buck and a doe. We have it pushing a 100 gr PT @ 2945 fps and he has put his time in at the range. We had him ringing the 250 yrd gong ( although we would not let him take those shots at an animal) from the bench, and the 50 yrd gong free hand. He will put in for his cow moose draw this year and we are going black bear hunting in the spring. We will not be hunting over bait, but doing spot and stalk ranges should be under 200 yrds. My bil will back him up with an 06 or 300 win mag. And I will be with them aswell with a 7mm rm , I have know doubts on what the results with that load will be. In the real world, not in magazine pages, an animal is unable to tell if it is hit with a .243 cal or a .277 cal . A bullet that is .034" bigger in diamater with a similar sd and travelling at the same velocity will be of little relevance. Obviously as cal. gets bigger and drive bullets faster you increase horse power, I wouldn't compare a .243 or 6mm to an 06 or 300 win, in terms of killing power , but compared to a 260 or 7mm 08, or a 270 your really splitting hairs.
G
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Super-7, I'm a big fan of the 243Win, and have a long history with one. It happened to be my dad's only high-powered rifle for about 30yrs, and he took white-tails all over the southeast with that rifle (which now lives in my safe), in at least seven states. It is, in fact, much underestimated as a deer and thin-skinned game round. But I'll argue a little bit with your assertion that the 260 or 7mm-08 are not markedly better. The issue with this is something that is infrequently measured or thought about with bullets - momentum. It's the precursor to Kinetic Energy, and it's the reason a .308cal bullet with a .250 SD is more likely to be useful on larger deer or elk than a .243cal bullet with the same SD. And I'm using that value because it's in line with the .242 SD of the 100gr .243cal bullet, and the 165gr .308cal bullet's SD of .248. The issue here is the 65% increase in mass for the .308cal bullet. I'd most assuredly go after bear with a 165gr Partition in my 30-06 long before I'd go after them with a 100gr Partition in 243Win. And, I love my 243Win.
I got into a similar discussion years ago regarding aluminum versus carbon arrows. Lots of folks love carbon, and yet I still shoot Easton XX75 2314 aluminums in my bow. Why? Well, my arrows, with a 100gr broadhead, weigh in at roughly 480gr. Carbons will only run about 400-425 for the same length in the right spine for my setup. That extra 50-80gr is valuable in that it allows my arrow to push on through hide, bone, and meat. I've seen a number of deer chased through the woods with a carbon arrow hanging out of their side. Some were eventually bagged, some got away, unfortunately. I've only shot aluminums at deer, and I can tell you that I have yet to shoot a deer and lose it, with a bow. (Or, for that matter, with a rifle.) I had a doe "duck my string" and my arrow hit her in the spine, at 22yds. I found that arrow stuck in the ground behind her, though, because it had the mass to push on through the spine, shattering a whole vertebrae and dropping her in her tracks, before exiting and sticking in the ground. And in this case, the increase in bullet weight is far more than the increase in arrow weight.
I'm not saying you can't hunt bear (or even elk) with a .243cal round. People do it with some success every year. I'm just saying if I were a one-gun man, as many youths will be for a while when they start out, I'd sure consider starting with a little bigger bullet for that added mass. Even considering a 7mm-08, with 140gr bullets, you've got a 40% increase in mass, which will pay off on white-tails. And you can load that or the 260 with lighter bullets for yotes and such. If you handload, you can create loads with the recoil of a 100gr .243Win loading (~10lbs) pretty handily using published data, so shootability isn't an issue. If you're prairie dog shooting, even the 243Win is going to be a little bit big, so that opens another can of worms.
I got into a similar discussion years ago regarding aluminum versus carbon arrows. Lots of folks love carbon, and yet I still shoot Easton XX75 2314 aluminums in my bow. Why? Well, my arrows, with a 100gr broadhead, weigh in at roughly 480gr. Carbons will only run about 400-425 for the same length in the right spine for my setup. That extra 50-80gr is valuable in that it allows my arrow to push on through hide, bone, and meat. I've seen a number of deer chased through the woods with a carbon arrow hanging out of their side. Some were eventually bagged, some got away, unfortunately. I've only shot aluminums at deer, and I can tell you that I have yet to shoot a deer and lose it, with a bow. (Or, for that matter, with a rifle.) I had a doe "duck my string" and my arrow hit her in the spine, at 22yds. I found that arrow stuck in the ground behind her, though, because it had the mass to push on through the spine, shattering a whole vertebrae and dropping her in her tracks, before exiting and sticking in the ground. And in this case, the increase in bullet weight is far more than the increase in arrow weight.
I'm not saying you can't hunt bear (or even elk) with a .243cal round. People do it with some success every year. I'm just saying if I were a one-gun man, as many youths will be for a while when they start out, I'd sure consider starting with a little bigger bullet for that added mass. Even considering a 7mm-08, with 140gr bullets, you've got a 40% increase in mass, which will pay off on white-tails. And you can load that or the 260 with lighter bullets for yotes and such. If you handload, you can create loads with the recoil of a 100gr .243Win loading (~10lbs) pretty handily using published data, so shootability isn't an issue. If you're prairie dog shooting, even the 243Win is going to be a little bit big, so that opens another can of worms.
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
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Super-7. I have to disagree with you.
The difference between a 100gr .243 bullet and a 150gr .277 bullet is huge.
30% greater frontal area to start with. 50% more mass, 50% more energy, 50% more momentum, 50% greater ability crush bone, and poke holes in those huge lungs.
As you mentioned we are not talking about the magazines were the elk just stand there 100 yards broadside with a sign on them that says "Shoot me". We are talking tough moving and quartering shots often in the 200+ yard range. Unless you plan on taking the kid to some place where the elk are tied to a tree, you are doing them a great dis-service by undergunning them, and not preparing the mentally and equipment wise for what real world field conditions are like.
.243 for whitetails is fine, but Elk are a whole different critter.
The difference between a 100gr .243 bullet and a 150gr .277 bullet is huge.
30% greater frontal area to start with. 50% more mass, 50% more energy, 50% more momentum, 50% greater ability crush bone, and poke holes in those huge lungs.
As you mentioned we are not talking about the magazines were the elk just stand there 100 yards broadside with a sign on them that says "Shoot me". We are talking tough moving and quartering shots often in the 200+ yard range. Unless you plan on taking the kid to some place where the elk are tied to a tree, you are doing them a great dis-service by undergunning them, and not preparing the mentally and equipment wise for what real world field conditions are like.
.243 for whitetails is fine, but Elk are a whole different critter.
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
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Well, there is always the 6.5mm-08, the 7mm-08, the 30-08, 338-08, 35-08. maybe one of them would work. I figure a .25-08 never caught on because it would have to compete with the 25/3000 .257 roberts, and the 25/284.
Antelope_Sniper":ynd42360 said:
A: You shouldn't be taking hard quartering shots at elk... regardless of the caliber. To do so, is inviting disaster.... you can paint it with whatever brush you choose... but a questionable shot is always questionable... even if the intentions are good.
B: You're doing a youth a great dis-service by overgunning them as well.....
C: A youth (or any other person of limited experience) shouldn't be shooting at ANYTHING unless all systems are "GO".... that goes for coyotes on up......
D: If you can kill it with a bow.... you can certainly kill it with a well placed shot (and a good bullet) out of a .243.
E: Practice is PARAMOUNT when preparing anyone for their first big game hunt.... and you can't practice well with a firearm you're scared of. I'd rather have a 100 grain pill in the bread-basket... than a 300 grainer in the paunch...
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
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Songdog, as a typical bow hunter you seem to forget that rifle season is AFTER bow season, muzzleloader season, and after the Rut is over. By the time rifle season rolls around, the elk have been bugled, poked and smoked for a full month or two. Then if your tag is for the second or third season, and they've been shot at with REAL guns, you have an additional level of complexity added to the equation. Last year during second season we had 2 deer and 2 elk hanging in camp, everyone was a running shot. If we where waiting for your perfect shots, there wouldn't of been anything in the freezer. Waiting for the perfect shot is nice internet rhetoric, and worked well shooting whitetails off Grandads alfalfa fields but it doesn't conform to realities of elk hunting of public lands that have been bugled poked and smoke for two months. If you are going to make them wait for that perfect 100 yard broadside shot, you might as well leave them at home.
In addition, a .270 win is not exactly a cannon. Put a big recoil pad on it, drop you load back just a couple of grain to take the whip out of it, and it's very tolerable to shoot. Load the 130's for deer, antelope, and practice, just load the 150's for elk season.
Just so we're clear.... you're advocating taking less than ideal shots at elk... correct?
If so, then you're expecting caliber to make-up for some lack of precision... correct?
I'm not even A bowhunter... let alone a typical one.... what I am, is a realist... a guy who's seen little bullets do really bad stuff to critters. If you feel like you have to take rushed, less than precise shots to kill elk and deer where you hunt... then that's on you... but should be take with a couple grains of salt when trying to apply it to the broad spectrum of elk hunting/hunters. I too have killed several elk... and many, many deer.... and I don't ever remember shooting at a running one... nor having to. I guess at the end of the day there are things that are important to me when it comes to hunting.... and there are things that are important about killing... and I'm not willing to sacrifice my hunting or killing ethics because I may have to eat tag soup.
I've heard this argument over and over... in many forms: "I only have 2 days to hunt... so I have to take any shot offered".... or, "the critters where I hunt are super skiddish, so shots come quick".... or, "I hunt for meat, so I have to take any shot I can".... or, "if I don't anchor it where it stands, someone will tag it before I can get to it"... many brushes.... all the same color paint. It will never hold water to me.... if you need to compensate for poor shot placement.... for ANY reason (running shots included here).... by going to a larger caliber... then I'd take a hard look at the nut behind the trigger of your current rifle... before ponying up for that .460 Roy.
If so, then you're expecting caliber to make-up for some lack of precision... correct?
I'm not even A bowhunter... let alone a typical one.... what I am, is a realist... a guy who's seen little bullets do really bad stuff to critters. If you feel like you have to take rushed, less than precise shots to kill elk and deer where you hunt... then that's on you... but should be take with a couple grains of salt when trying to apply it to the broad spectrum of elk hunting/hunters. I too have killed several elk... and many, many deer.... and I don't ever remember shooting at a running one... nor having to. I guess at the end of the day there are things that are important to me when it comes to hunting.... and there are things that are important about killing... and I'm not willing to sacrifice my hunting or killing ethics because I may have to eat tag soup.
I've heard this argument over and over... in many forms: "I only have 2 days to hunt... so I have to take any shot offered".... or, "the critters where I hunt are super skiddish, so shots come quick".... or, "I hunt for meat, so I have to take any shot I can".... or, "if I don't anchor it where it stands, someone will tag it before I can get to it"... many brushes.... all the same color paint. It will never hold water to me.... if you need to compensate for poor shot placement.... for ANY reason (running shots included here).... by going to a larger caliber... then I'd take a hard look at the nut behind the trigger of your current rifle... before ponying up for that .460 Roy.
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
- 2,618
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Songdog:
What I advocate is having the training, mindset and equipment to turn a marginal shots into an acceptable shots, and continuing to improve upon those variables to continously improve your opportunity for a successful hunt. Yes, that mean learning how to take running shot, long shots, and shooting under windy conditions, (Of course growing up in Wyoming, the last one was a given :roll: ). Of course you can only spend so much time on the range, before you stretch youself in the field, other wise you will never learn. Having the right equipment does mean taking enough gun. Does my .338 Win mag open up shot opportunites for me that would be foolish for someone with a .243? Of Course it does. More tissue damage in both depth and breadth and thought bigger bones = more dead critters with equal shots.
Of course I don't depend on just the caliber of my rifle:
This is from 400 yards.
When we start talking about what is too big for a kid, we must really think about THE kid. Are we talking a small 9 year old, or a big 14 year old. Tough ranch kid, or a sissy city kid? Where 14 is the minimum age to hunt here in Colorado, and knowing when Randy will start them shooting, they should be able to handle a .270 Win or 7mm-08 just fine by the time they are 14. As for hunting elk with a .243, well, isn't that your prairie dog gun?
If you have a secret spot where the elk just stand there at 100 yards broadside during 3rd season, please PM me with details, the deadline for the draw is comming up soon.
What I advocate is having the training, mindset and equipment to turn a marginal shots into an acceptable shots, and continuing to improve upon those variables to continously improve your opportunity for a successful hunt. Yes, that mean learning how to take running shot, long shots, and shooting under windy conditions, (Of course growing up in Wyoming, the last one was a given :roll: ). Of course you can only spend so much time on the range, before you stretch youself in the field, other wise you will never learn. Having the right equipment does mean taking enough gun. Does my .338 Win mag open up shot opportunites for me that would be foolish for someone with a .243? Of Course it does. More tissue damage in both depth and breadth and thought bigger bones = more dead critters with equal shots.
Of course I don't depend on just the caliber of my rifle:
This is from 400 yards.
When we start talking about what is too big for a kid, we must really think about THE kid. Are we talking a small 9 year old, or a big 14 year old. Tough ranch kid, or a sissy city kid? Where 14 is the minimum age to hunt here in Colorado, and knowing when Randy will start them shooting, they should be able to handle a .270 Win or 7mm-08 just fine by the time they are 14. As for hunting elk with a .243, well, isn't that your prairie dog gun?
If you have a secret spot where the elk just stand there at 100 yards broadside during 3rd season, please PM me with details, the deadline for the draw is comming up soon.
- Thread starter
- #33
YoteSmoker
Handloader
- Oct 3, 2006
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Thanks for all the inputs and somewhat amusing debates. I'm leaning toward something in a short action 7mm. Either could be loaded down and with 120 grain bullets for smaller critters and 130-140 tougher bullets ie Partition or barnes and work just fine on elk within reason. I personally prefer the 7mm08 over the 270 in that ballistics are near identical in the medium to heavier bullet range with less powder and a shorter bolt through for a kid/teen. I bought a 30-06 barrel and a 7mm08 barrel for the Encore hoping my wife would want to hunt elk with the 30-06. The 7mm08 is still here but not the 30-06. I traded it off for another 7 rem mag for myself as I will take a little more recoil for a little more reach and it is my favorite all around deer and elk cartridge. My original post wasn't about what I prefer but what would be ideal for a budding young hunter.
If I were to start a kid hunting only deer and occasional varmint/predator, the 243 would be hard to beat.
If I were to start a kid hunting only deer and occasional varmint/predator, the 243 would be hard to beat.
- Thread starter
- #34
YoteSmoker
Handloader
- Oct 3, 2006
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P.S. Antelope Sniper, my wife and I put in for the third season elk/deer draw yesterday. Both bucks my buddies shot last season were dropped between 200-250 yards and the elk the season before was 324 yards by range finder. 30-06 with 180 Accubonds and 300 Win mag with 180 TSX was the poison. If you find a bull standing broadside at 100 yards in third season, you better think hard about getting it tested for CWD LOL.
I hear you lope...
What I'm an advocate for... and what I encourage... is a bullet hole in both lungs. 95% of the rest of the stuff we debate here is pure ballistic gack. What's my elk caliber of choice? .375 H&H... enough said. I guess I just feel there'd be a whole lot more dead critters if folks would adopt that "bowhunter's" mentality.... especially by those who're just learning the ways.
My point is... a marginal shot is still just that... caliber increases the odds... but (and it's a big but), you still gotta start a shot where the results are questionable... and to me... that's too big a dice to roll. Again... if you're ok with it... then that's you.... but I can't condone it, and I think it's a poor argument, particularly when novice shooters are involved.
I'm thinking a 7mm-08 would be just the ticket for a youngster... and that's where I'd start'em if an elk hunt were in the plans. Reckon that goes for the .270 Worstchester too... even though it'll always suck hind teet to the 7's....
What I'm an advocate for... and what I encourage... is a bullet hole in both lungs. 95% of the rest of the stuff we debate here is pure ballistic gack. What's my elk caliber of choice? .375 H&H... enough said. I guess I just feel there'd be a whole lot more dead critters if folks would adopt that "bowhunter's" mentality.... especially by those who're just learning the ways.
My point is... a marginal shot is still just that... caliber increases the odds... but (and it's a big but), you still gotta start a shot where the results are questionable... and to me... that's too big a dice to roll. Again... if you're ok with it... then that's you.... but I can't condone it, and I think it's a poor argument, particularly when novice shooters are involved.
I'm thinking a 7mm-08 would be just the ticket for a youngster... and that's where I'd start'em if an elk hunt were in the plans. Reckon that goes for the .270 Worstchester too... even though it'll always suck hind teet to the 7's....
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
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When it comes right down to it, we are pretty alike.
We both carry big guns, and will teach our kids about the importance of the first shot. That's why I've started my girls with an NEF single shot.
Yote, one brother-in-law wants me to put in for muzzle loader with him, and the other wants we to go first season. I think that area requires a point or two to draw a muzzle loader tag, but I can probably draw the first season tag without any points, so I will probably when I will end up going. In any event we need to have you and the new Mrs. over before too terrible long, preferably sometime before p-dog season starts.
We both carry big guns, and will teach our kids about the importance of the first shot. That's why I've started my girls with an NEF single shot.
Yote, one brother-in-law wants me to put in for muzzle loader with him, and the other wants we to go first season. I think that area requires a point or two to draw a muzzle loader tag, but I can probably draw the first season tag without any points, so I will probably when I will end up going. In any event we need to have you and the new Mrs. over before too terrible long, preferably sometime before p-dog season starts.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,554
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YoteSmoker,
I would think that the 7mm-08 would be just great for a young shooter.
I would think that the 7mm-08 would be just great for a young shooter.
A.S. I know what your getting at with your figures but I know that you Know that it is not a linear figure . 50% more weight fired at the same velocity will be multiplied by felt recoil. I am saying if your hunting deer with a .243 it is just as effective as any of the next up's that would be kid tolerable. To down load a 7mm-08 to have your kid grow into the loads is just fine to, that goes with most of the other cals aswell, but if they are down loaded to a tolerable recoil, there killing potential will probably be very similar to the 243 with a standard 100 gr load.
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
- 2,618
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46gr of H4831 behind a 100gr NPT gives 1939 lbf
my "kids load" of 56.5gr H4831 behind a 130gr NSB give 2671 lbf, so it's a 40% increase.
Of course as they grow I can take the 270 up to max...just like you could with the 7mm-08
I could borrow a page fm Wubyam.....and load the 110 AB's.
my "kids load" of 56.5gr H4831 behind a 130gr NSB give 2671 lbf, so it's a 40% increase.
Of course as they grow I can take the 270 up to max...just like you could with the 7mm-08
I could borrow a page fm Wubyam.....and load the 110 AB's.
