100TTSX Disappointing balistics

[nomosendero]

I will be loading ammo in the next 2 weeks for an upcoming Antelope hunt.
We will be using a couple 25-06's & a couple of 25-06AI's, 4 rifles. The WY shots can be well over 400 yds. where we hunt. We have used alot of different bullets & know pretty much what to expect in terminal performance at all ranges for those bullets, except for the 115BT, which we have plenty experience for 100+ yards, but only 1 AR Whitetail Doe up close. When we Deer hunt here in AR, shots can be at 25 yds. or 300 yds, so any comments on how the 115BT will hold up on a good sized Buck up close will be appreciated. Because of up close hunting,
we are not considering the 100BT.
Anyway, I have been waiting for awhile for the BC info of the 100TTSX & they finally posted it. The BC is .357, pretty dang low, in fact a good deal lower than the 100TSX. I e-mailed Barnes to see if this was a typo, they assured me it was & that's just the wayit came out with those 2 bullets, usually the tip adds to the BC, not with this one & I think one of the 270 bullets.
The tip aids expansion & we have used the TSX, but at 25-06 vel(not 257Wea) we found the expansion & smack factor to not be the best after 300 yds.
So, I decided to check the ballistic difference of the 100TTSX @ .357BC & 115BT @ .453 at www.biggameinfo.com I used a vel. of 3400 for the 100gr & 3200 for the 115BT, warm 25-06 loads with our 26" tubes, the AI will usually be about 125fps faster. The numbers can vary up or down with different rifles, but I think a 200 FPS difference between these 2 bullets is about what you get at the same pressure.
With a 250 yd. zero for both, the max rise diff @ 150 yd. is only .2" . Looking at 25 yd. increments, the max. drop advantage for the TTSX occurs is at 450 yds. & the diff. is only .9", no real difference. At 625yds the drop is identical & after that 115BT drops less, which matters for Coyotes & targets. Again, for Varmits the expansion is possible for the BT way out there & the BT has a good deal less wind deflection @ 500 plus yards.
So, in view of this, after getting the BC #'s from Barnes, I will not be buying these. If the 115BT is a little soft for river bottom Bucks up close, I can load some Partitions & the POI at 100yd diff. shouldn't amount to anything, again input on the BT up close would be appreciated.
I just wanted to bring this Bal. comarison to light. I think Barnes missed an opportunity here, why not a 105gr or a small tweak to increase BC?

 

[nitis]

why not make a comprimise and go with the 110 AccuBond???

 

[nomosendero]

why not make a comprimise and go with the 110 AccuBond???

I have not found them that accurate YET in my AI, I should have mentioned that. From an allround terminal performance aspect it looks good, but the BC differnce is quite a bit compared to the 115BT & with the long bearing surface I havn't been able to push it faster to speak of to make up the bal. difference, the only thing is that it would solve the up close part but I never have noticed the need for the exta toughness after 100 yds or so & have been ho-hum about the bullet in a 25-06, but with a good grouping load it is not ruled out totally yet. It just seems like with the Acc, I only gain one thing and give up a little with everything else,
which with the BC's is not the case with other calibers.

I sure love the Acc in my 270 & 300WM, but that's another story.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Load the 115g nbt's with confidence. Thats all I used for years out of my 25-06 at 3300fps to take muleys/whitetails from 50-600 yards with that 115g nbt. Most were shoulder shots and I never did find a 115g nbt, so take it for what its worth. Its a great bullet in the 25-06 with a .450 BC.

 

[tjRoberts]

I have ahad accuracy troubles with the 110 grain AccuBond.
I have tried it in about 5 rifles and 4 cartridges. The BC of 418 would be great hor my .257 weatherby.
I must add that I got great groups with the 110 grainer from one of my .257 Roberts, at low velocity but when I got the speed up , the accuracy went by the wayside.
I have had good results with the 115 grain balistic tip, and the 100 grain TSX. The 100 balistic tip is accurate in my Roberts , but I would only use it ano varmints in my .257 weatherby.
I must add that all of the .257 calibert partitions I haver shot have been accurate.
...tj3006

 

[nomosendero]

Load the 115g nbt's with confidence. Thats all I used for years out of my 25-06 at 3300fps to take muleys/whitetails from 50-600 yards with that 115g nbt. Most were shoulder shots and I never did find a 115g nbt, so take it for what its worth. Its a great bullet in the 25-06 with a .450 BC.

It's worth alot to me Rem!! That's why I posed the question about the close shot, 1 Doe was all we have killed up close with that bullet. The fact that you have found no bullets tells me what I need to know. And we don't hunt with these in the woods much anyway, as we have alot of other toys
like 45-70, 30-06, etc. that get lonesome. But my son just has this Sendero for now & I did not want to load him a too soft bullet for close shots, but he usually lungs them anyway to save the meat.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[nitis]

no disrespect intended but arent you at the point of splitting hairs? Lets say there is a bullet that does what you want as far as bc etc what are the chances that it will even shoot out of your gun?

I suggest you get as close as you can to what you want see if it shoots then learn the bullet and how it performs.

I am at the point where I think I will try if my guns like them to shoot accubonds exclusively really no reason to use anything else. Oh and was working with my 25.06 today wth 110 abonds and retumbo and I was quite pleased yet it despised the 100 gr bts

 

[1Shot]

Don't worry about close shots with the 115 BT or the Sierra 117 in the 25-06. I have killed a lot of deer with both. Even if you shoot a big deer through the front shoulders at 50 yards these bullets usually will make it to the off side and will be found under the hide on the off side. 99% of the time the deer will drop right in it's tracks dead. I have not tried them but I have read good things about the Berger 115's in the 25-06 on game.

 

[nomosendero]

no disrespect intended but arent you at the point of splitting hairs? Lets say there is a bullet that does what you want as far as bc etc what are the chances that it will even shoot out of your gun?

I suggest you get as close as you can to what you want see if it shoots then learn the bullet and how it performs.

I am at the point where I think I will try if my guns like them to shoot accubonds exclusively really no reason to use anything else. Oh and was working with my 25.06 today wth 110 abonds and retumbo and I was quite pleased yet it despised the 100 gr bts

No, I don't think I am splitting hairs at all. I already know they shoot good in my AI & the 2 25-06's I will be shooting are untested with any bullet,
so I don't know what they like anyway. The first step is to make sure they shoot & move on if they don't . It's always good to get close, but in WY on the ranch we hunt getting close is not always done, but staying within the capabilities of gun, load & myself is done or the trigger is not pulled.

This is not a novice hunter thread. I had 2 purposes in mind.
1. To point out that the new TTSX was not what I expected & would not
give me anything in the way of ballistics. I thought I should mention this because in most cases the TTSX has a BC gain over the TSX, but in this case the reverse is true.
2. I needed to ask about the short range terminal performance of the 115BT in case this is the bullet I settle on. I only had 1 Doe up close
& that is not much in the way of experience, but we have used the bullet in WY at 100+ yards & most guns tend to like it.
2 hunters have relayed their actual experiences & that is the info I asked for and needed.

 

[nitis]

From my experiences with any ballistic tip at anything 100 yds or so and less they will kill the snot out of anything hit then it is a matter of how much meat is salvageable

I set my dad up with my 270 wsm and 150 gr ballistic tips for an elk hunt but forgot to mention how devastating they could be as he is used to partitions for the las 40 yrs or howeverlong he has had them in his H&H

Anyway he shot it in the front shoulder and dropped it in its tracks but the whole entire front shoulder was ruined and that was at just over 100 yds

Good luck

 

[JD338]

The fact is, any high velocity bullet up close is going to ruin a lot of meat if it is put through a shoulder. The BT is designed for 3000 fps or lower impact velocities and the PT is much higher.
If you are going to take out shoulders, especially up close, I would recommend the 115 gr PT and not look back. If you keep the 115 gr BT in the ribs, you will be fine.

JD338

 

[Desert Fox]

If you have a copy of Nosler Number 4 reloading guide, on page 49, Rick Jamison has a good article regarding the appropriate use of Partition or Ballistic Tip bullet on games. I encourage you to read it!

Ballisttic Tip were designed to sliced through the wind efficiently, arrived at the target with enough energy and to expand reliably upon impact - even at lower velocity. These were the criteria when Nosler envision to create this bullet. BT took a lot of flack from hunters when it first came out because of it's notoriety of exploding on impact, which resulted in creating large wound cavity and inability to penetrate deep. I believe lot's of these are propagated by un-imformed hunters who expect Partition performance from this new bullet and used it as such. If you think a close shot is possible, then use the right bullet appropriately. High or low B.C is not important!!! bullet toughness is. DF

 

[Ridge_Runner]

I've taken I think 10 or 11 deer with the nosler 115 gr BT in a 25 wssm running them right at 3000 fps. double lung shots, double shoulder shots, quartering shots and 1 head shot, from 50 yards to 300 and haven't recovered one yet.
I've also hurled the 140's out of a 7mm STW at 3550 fps and taken 19 bucks and a black bear and most of them will exit, I do suggest staying off the shoulder at 75 yards and less at that velocity.

When the BT's first came out they were tender, the magnum guys had alot of problems with them. todays BT's (in med game weights, packed 50 per box) are the exact same makeup as the solid base boattail with the exception of the polymer tip.
RR

 

[R Flowers]

Well, this is a sort of multifacited post you have started here, but I do have some comments.

In regard to the 115 grain Ballistic Tip, I have had great success with it in my 25-06. I have a 24 inch barrel and run that bullet at about 3150 fps.
I have shot several antelope with it and the performance was great. I have also shot a number of wild hogs with that bullet and it really surprised me in how well it performed on good size hogs. I had to finish one off that I had shot a little too far back and at less than 20 yards that 115 BT penetrated clear through that hog!

Like you, I was rather amazed that Barnes published a lower B.C. for the tipped version of the 100 grain TSX than the standard hollow point version.
It is hard to figure how that is correct, but I guess I have to give Barnes credit for publishing it if that is the way it tested out.

We have been having great success with the 100 grain TSX on hogs. I shot a BIG sucker the other day running like crazy at well over 300 yards with my 25-06 using the 100 TSX and the performance was perfect. From the mess inside, it was obvious that the expansion was good, and the penetration was through and through.

I see that someone suggested the AccuBond. I have to admit I am just not an AccuBond fan. I have had a terrible time getting some guns to shoot them, especially .338 caliber guns. I just have real mixed results with Accubonds in regard to accuracy.

Last month we went on an antelope hunt in New Mexico. About half of the guys on the hunt used Barnes TSX or Tipped TSX with great performance.
One guy shot an antelope with a 270 using Ballistic Tips and when skinned the poor thing looked like a bomb had gone off inside. Another guy shot one with a .257 Wby Mag at about 300 yards using a 110 AccuBond and again, the wasted meat was amazing!

My dad shot his antelope at a lasered 580 yards using a .257 Wby Mag and 80 grain Tipped TSX bullets. The performance could not have been better. That buck dropped like he was struck by lightning. I do not think he even kicked. At 3900 fps those little bullets sure shoot flat.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Well it looks like everyone has the same great things to say about the 115g NBT out of the 25-06 on deer. Not one bad thing I read from anybody about them.

Any bullet you shoot through a deer shoulders at 100 yards or less is going to ruin meat, its the bone shattering and going everywhere that does this, not the bullet. The biggest exit hole I"ve ever witnessed on deer was with a 100g XLC at 3400fps from a 25-06 at about 150 yards through both shoulders, the exit was the size of a pieplate, no joke, have pics.

Some people are right about not using btips at close range, say under 100 yards out of some super fast cartridges/magnums, but if you use the heavier for caliber btips and not the lightest ones for caliber, 99% of the time you'll be ok, especially if you can just slip it in behind the ribs. I understand this is hunting and you dont always get perfect shots, but if you think that just because your using a bullet that holds together better and that entitles you to make a raking shot, thats just as bad.

I also think 90% of the horror stories you hear about btips are from someones hunting buddy's, brothers, dads uncle, son, yadda yadda that you dont even know what to believe from the story unless you were there. I tend to not take bad comments to NBT's to lightly because I know how they work, and they work awesome when you use them correctly. They can also not work so awesome if you choose to use the light ones at blistering speeds. Thats your own stupidity, not the NBT or Noslers fault...

The one and only thing I could even think of possibly saying anything bad about them is a little bit of meat loss. But folks, you really gotta get over that. Your using a bullet, not a freaking arrow. And anyways, what would you rather have, your deer down instantly with a little bit of wasted meat, say what 5 lbs, big deal. Or would you rather have your animal run off 100 yards before expiring with a little less meat damage or maybe not even finding it at all? Me I'll take the DRT shot with a little meat damage anytime, I dont like to track. I prefer shoulder shots to lung/heart shots, so it dont matter what bullet I would use as they would all make a mess.

I got close to a whole photo album filled with animals taken with the NBT from coyotes to elk, from .222 rem to 300 RUM. Never found a NBT yet, much to my surprise.

 

[FOTIS]

Not here to tell you what to use but I will tell you what works for me.

In my Ruger #1 57 gr of RL 25 yields 3250 fps with the 110 AccuBond and I have verified groups of UNDER 1/2" over and over again.
They will kill goats on the 25th of September.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Nice POP!! Thats pretty quick for the 110g AB. Should do very well on goats and deer.

When I tested the 110g AB it was back when I had my win model 70 25-06. I tried them with H4831 and it shot them around 3085fps and 1/2 MOA. Shot one group with them at 500 yards and it was 3". Never did kill anythign with them as I only bought 1 box.

After all this talk on the 115g NBT, I acquired half a box from my dad tonight to toy with in my rem 700 24" shilen barreled 25-06. I have a load with the 115g VLD and Retumbo at 58.5g that shoots 1/2 MOA at 3275fps, so I"m thinking the NBT's should shoot around 57g-58.5g hopefully over 3200fps and 1/2 MOA.

I will load them up this week and hopefully get around to shooting them after work one night or this weekend, depends on if I go bear hunting or not.

I finished load work up on my dads friends sendero in 25-06 with 115g NBTs and Retumbo last week. First outing was with 56, 57, 58g 3 shots each at 3.250" All 3 of them did 2 touching or real close, and flung one about 1-1.25" These were .010" off the lands. I decided to go with the 58g load and mess with seating depths. I went from 3.250" all the way down to 3.150" in .015" increments. Finally hit a sweet spot at 3.165" which is around .090" off the lands, it gave a 3 shot group of .45" at 100 yards, 2 in 1 hole and the 3rd out just a smidge. This is one of the first rifles I can remember not liking NBT's at or close to the lands. I was bout ready to switch powder if I couldn't find a load that would do at least 3/4". Didn't crono his rifle at all, but I might be able to take it out when I shoot my 25-06. Be nice to see how his 26" comares to my 24". However, I know my 24" is a tad on the fast side for a 25-06.

 

[nomosendero]

Very interesting & I appreciate all comments.

There is a clear pattern with these responses.
1. The ones that actually used this bullet, even up close obtained very similar results.

Remington_25_06 took Whitetails/Muleis from 50-600 yds. with pass-throughs.

1shot killed alot with BT & even 50 yds on big Bucks acceptable.

Ridge_Runner took 10-11 Deer, took various shots, all pass-throughs.

R Flowers took several Antelope & Hogs & some were good sized Hogs.

The 4 combined it appears took alot of animals with this bullet, none mentioned inadaquate penetration up close, I did not expect that.

2. Experienced hunters but not experienced with this bullet, at least up close. I put myself in this group, as I have seen some animals shot with very good effect, but only 1 up close, a large WT Doe. This group was also pretty consistant concerning being cautious shots, I was & that is why I asked the question.

I believe I can conclude something here. Since the ones with the actual experience were so consistant, I believe the rest of us were maybe alittle
overly cautious about the "softness" of this bullet. Just for fun I will load a few 120 Partitions & see where they hit, my son can always use them in the woods where ranges are short, nothing to lose if the POI diff is minor at 100 yds. since I have a box of those anyway, but I don't feel it's necessary now. If they don't hit close to the same place up close, I won't bother, besides he likes to "lung" them anyhow to spare the meat & Whitetail will be the toughest animal he will shoot. If he goes to the NAT. Forrest with me where we have big Hogs & Black Bear also, he can carry my 30-06AI.

Thanks very much for the input, I will start loading Saturday.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

DF, I can tell you from first hand experience the first year production BT's had pathetic on game performance.

Dad shot an antelope at 300 yards with a 130gr BT in the ribs, behind the shoulder. It failed to penetrate the ribs. The second round was a neck shot, and althought it killed the critter, it was just barely. It was another splatter shot that failed to penetrate penetrate the spike. Both shots looked like 52gr Sierra match bullets out of a 22-250, not a 130gr bullet from .270 Win.

I was still shooting the old 150gr solid base, so I didn't have any problem. I shot my buck with a headon neck shot from 250 yards. It broke the spine, and I recovered the bullet from on of his hipbones, with 63% retention, and a perfect mushroom.

Since then I believe Nosler has redesigned the BT 3 times, and the current BT's are one of my favorite bullets. Cheap, accurate, Bang. Flop.

 

[Desert Fox]

DF, I can tell you from first hand experience the early BT's were pathetic trash.

When I started using Ballistic Tip bullet for my 280 Remington, It came in 100 count green and red color box. If this is the bullet you're talking about then my experience was different than yours. As a matter of fact I just used the last of the bullet about two years ago. I had killed several deer using those bullet with good result. With velocity around 2900 fps, the 150 grain was deadly accurate. My longest kill with these bullet was at 600+ yards and the closest was at 150, all one shot. The only animal that survived when hit with these bullet and didn't go down was a coyote at about 400 paces. I remember the coyote was setting on it's hind legs with it's back facing me and my buddy when I took the shot. The 150 grain struck the coyote right leg just below the armpit and shattered it in pieces. The coyote took-off running dragging what was left of the right leg. I missed it on my follow-up shot. The bottom line, Ballistic Tip is an excellent bullet if use correctly.

Here's a 5 shot group using those early bullet.