.30-06 vs a couple of 7mm mags...

[BF375]

I am old enough to have loaded the 30-06 with a 165 grain Partition with H-205 and got 2975 fps from a 22 inch barrel way back in late 70's or early 1980's. H-205 and Norma 205 were both discontinued about the same time due to pressure unpredictablity as I recall. I loaded that ammo for a couple of logger friends in Wallowa county and it killed elk very well.

Thirty years later I used RL25 in my 26 inch stainless pre64 and got over 3050 fps with the 160 AccuBond and North Fork.

Shooting Accubonds in both and using Byran Litz verified G7 BC, in a full deflection 10 mph cross wind the hot 30-06 has 2 inches more wind drift at 400 yards and only 150 fps less velocity. Not much difference especially when one is a 22 inch barrel, weighs less and kicks less.

I think the 7mm got its reputation from the fact it is going fast enough at close range, say out to 150 yards, that it frequently caused sudden death by completely destroying the heart. I have seen 30-06 failures with good bullets on big elk, including the 180 PT at a normal 2700 fps, where they run like they do forever despite a pencil sized hole through one or both lungs. (Happened to my father in law most recently).

That extra velocity and bullet and bone fragmentation of the 7mm is beneficial, but that 165 PT at 2975 had similar effect at close range for my logger friends though it does not do so well at 400 yards as the AB.

What the 30-06 gives up in velocity is somewhat made up for by its larger expanded frontal area.

By the way, great picture of the 160 gr Bitterroot. That is what a hunting bullet is supposed to look like! What was velocity and range?

Andy I am old enough for the H205/N205 business as well; and have seen those velocities from a couple of 22" pre 64 M70 FW barrels that were measured and found to be oversized. I had a lot of discussions with Bill Steigers about that very subject.

Yes if a 30/06 gets to those velocities it narrows the gap between the cartridges,and I have seen a couple of bulls poleaxed with the 165 NPT at 400-500 yards and we are hard pressed to tell the difference. But IME it is easier to get 3050 with a 160 in the 7 RM than with the 165 in the 30/06. Anyway the 7 RM consistently shows less drop at anything from 300 on out,at least with my rifles. Most ammo with that 165 will not hit 2900 fps, factory or handholds unless the hand loader makes it happen.... :grin:


The 160 BBC was fired from a 7 RM at 3080,into the neck of a 6x6 bull from behind and above.Distance was about 200 yards.It went over the shoulder hump, into the neck and was recovered under the chin.It destroyed a substantial amount of the spine ,and caused a lot of trauma to surrounding neck tissue. retained weight was about 159 gr IIRC and expanded frontal area was almost 70 caliber.

The BBC is equaled by some designs today but not many are truly better IMHO.

 

[Bonz]

Good thread, just read it. I wonder if Nosler uses the heavier jacket in the AccuBond bullets versus the old style Ballistic tip, thus they are simply using the same jacket for the "new" Ballistic tip to keep cost down to streamline things.

That would be my bet if I was betting dollars to donuts.

 

[andrewctillman]

BF375,

Agree with what you said.

"But IME it is easier to get 3050 with a 160 in the 7 RM than (2975) with the 165 in the 30/06."

And thanks very much for the BBC report. I think only the North Fork could have done as well and it would not have expanded as much. Wiping out that much of the spine would have made hash out of most hunting bullets. Great photo.

 

[bowfishn]

By the way I am also old enough to remember the H205, that was my go to powder for my 06 . A couple years ago I purchased an unopened 8 lb box of H205 , it was in perfect condition. I use it with lapua brass, BR2 primers and 165 grain AB and BT s out of my 30-06 Sako Finnbear . Fire formed brass neck sized only shoots best with 60.5 grains.

 

[brikwhitt]

I'm not a naive person. I use a good dose of skepticism in everything related to snuffing out the life of a game animal that provides me with sustenance to keep living. I have owned, and still own rifles of many deer calibers. I have never once killed an animal with one that I didn't feel I could have just as easily killed with another.

I regularly hunt with a 30-06 because I have for many years since I was a teen. I've also taken my fair share with a 7mm Remmy. The worst tracking job I ever had to embark upon came about after a good hit on a four point buck in the vitals from a 7mm magnum pushing a 150gn Barnes X bullet.

Broadside shot at about 70 yards. Perfectly placed in the vitals. No exit wound as I was expecting. Bullet stuck in the hide on the opposite side missing 3 of the 4 petals when the bullet expanded. So we found absolutly zero blood.

After finally several hours of looking, and following several game trails going through the thickest twisted mess you can imagine. We found my deer. About 100 yards from where I shot him.

That 7mm produced a lot of sudden death scenarios. More Bang flops than I can remember, but it also provided me with one of the worst tracking jobs I can remember.

We all have our favorites when it comes to decrease calibers. I have a couple, and the 30-06 springfield is one of them. I beleave every young man should graduate from that 22 to a 30-06 for his first deer rifle. Just like me, I know my son did, and he could be carrying a lot worse into the woods every fall than a good tried and true 30-06.


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[BF375]

I'm not a naive person. I use a good dose of skepticism in everything related to snuffing out the life of a game animal that provides me with sustenance to keep living. I have owned, and still own rifles of many deer calibers. I have never once killed an animal with one that I didn't feel I could have just as easily killed with another.

I regularly hunt with a 30-06 because I have for many years since I was a teen. I've also taken my fair share with a 7mm Remmy. The worst tracking job I ever had to embark upon came about after a good hit on a four point buck in the vitals from a 7mm magnum pushing a 150gn Barnes X bullet.

Broadside shot at about 70 yards. Perfectly placed in the vitals. No exit wound as I was expecting. Bullet stuck in the hide on the opposite side missing 3 of the 4 petals when the bullet expanded. So we found absolutly zero blood.

After finally several hours of looking, and following several game trails going through the thickest twisted mess you can imagine. We found my deer. About 100 yards from where I shot him.

That 7mm produced a lot of sudden death scenarios. More Bang flops than I can remember, but it also provided me with one of the worst tracking jobs I can remember.

We all have our favorites when it comes to decrease calibers. I have a couple, and the 30-06 springfield is one of them. I beleave every young man should graduate from that 22 to a 30-06 for his first deer rifle. Just like me, I know my son did, and he could be carrying a lot worse into the woods every fall than a good tried and true 30-06.


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I don't think you tracking job was related at all to the cartridge;looks like just plain bad luck and more bullet related than anything else. That could have happened with just about any cartridge with a similar bullet that did not perform as we'd expect.

Generally, cartridges don't cause tracking jobs. It's usually other stuff. :wink:

 

[brikwhitt]

I'm not a naive person. I use a good dose of skepticism in everything related to snuffing out the life of a game animal that provides me with sustenance to keep living. I have owned, and still own rifles of many deer calibers. I have never once killed an animal with one that I didn't feel I could have just as easily killed with another.

I regularly hunt with a 30-06 because I have for many years since I was a teen. I've also taken my fair share with a 7mm Remmy. The worst tracking job I ever had to embark upon came about after a good hit on a four point buck in the vitals from a 7mm magnum pushing a 150gn Barnes X bullet.

Broadside shot at about 70 yards. Perfectly placed in the vitals. No exit wound as I was expecting. Bullet stuck in the hide on the opposite side missing 3 of the 4 petals when the bullet expanded. So we found absolutly zero blood.

After finally several hours of looking, and following several game trails going through the thickest twisted mess you can imagine. We found my deer. About 100 yards from where I shot him.

That 7mm produced a lot of sudden death scenarios. More Bang flops than I can remember, but it also provided me with one of the worst tracking jobs I can remember.

We all have our favorites when it comes to decrease calibers. I have a couple, and the 30-06 springfield is one of them. I beleave every young man should graduate from that 22 to a 30-06 for his first deer rifle. Just like me, I know my son did, and he could be carrying a lot worse into the woods every fall than a good tried and true 30-06.


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I don't think you tracking job was related at all to the cartridge;looks like just plain bad luck and more bullet related than anything else. That could have happened with just about any cartridge with a similar bullet that did not perform as we'd expect.

Generally, cartridges don't cause tracking jobs. It's usually other stuff. :wink:

You are so right. I was'nt implying the 7mm mag was inferior in any way to the 06. Only stating that bad $#!+ happens sometimes no matter the caliber you choose to use.

But as a side note concerning that particular incident. When I recovered what was left of that bullet, I dropped it in a small baggy with an index card that stated

"this bullet failed to perform as advertised on whitetail"

After giving bullet weight, distance to target, and muzzle velocity. I received a package in the mail. In that package was a dozen 150gn Barnes X with a index card that said.

"Here, try these."

Had already switched back to gamekings because accuracy was better with them. Was even better than the 150gn Barnes had sent me.



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[SJB358]

Same thing happened to me with the 7mm Rem. Had the longest string of 1 shot DRT's with 140 PTs. Switched to 160 Barnes X'S for a moose hunt thinking I needed a heavier bullet. Well, I did take a moose and caribou but it didn't seem to whack them as hard. Came home and used the same 160's for deer and had quite a few long, slim blood trails till I switched back to the 140 PT..

That was my first real lesson in bullet performance and how bullet weight isn't the be all end all in killing.