.30-06 vs a couple of 7mm mags...

[Ridgerunner665]

I have loaded the 30-06 to a full 65,000 psi...it works just fine...best to use Lapua brass, its tougher than the rest and lasts longer.

My loads actually settled at just over 61,000 psi (calibrated QuickLoad estimate)...a 168 grain Ballistic Tip at 2,850 fps...maxed out could get 2,900 fps.

The 175 Berger at 2,850 fps was a VERY stable and VERY accurate load using H4350...my son took a few deer with that load....I always opted for the 168 Ballistic Tip in mine, also an extremely reliable load using H4350.

By the numbers though, from a strictly ballistics standpoint...the 30-06 cannot quite match the 7mm Rem Mag....unless you want to plow a 220 grain bullet through a moose...then, in that case...the 7mm falls short.

I love the old '06...had a very nice one at one time...even now, with my much loved Nosler rifle, I still get mad every time I think about this rifle and how it got wrecked...I still miss it.

 

[baltz526]

7mm ballistic tip 140gr has a sd of .248, bc of .485 / .30 ballistic tip 165gr has a sd of .248, bc of .475. The 7mm rem mag will get 3300fps with the 140gr if all the stars align. The 30-06 with the 165gr will get 2950fps. When you look at the details, there is a substantial difference between the 7mm rem mag and the 30-06. The main difference is it shoots flatter.

 

[BF375]

7mm ballistic tip 140gr has a sd of .248, bc of .485 / .30 ballistic tip 165gr has a sd of .248, bc of .475. The 7mm rem mag will get 3300fps with the 140gr if all the stars align. The 30-06 with the 165gr will get 2950fps. When you look at the details, there is a substantial difference between the 7mm rem mag and the 30-06. The main difference is it shoots flatter.

Bingo.

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

7mm ballistic tip 140gr has a sd of .248, bc of .485 / .30 ballistic tip 165gr has a sd of .248, bc of .475. The 7mm rem mag will get 3300fps with the 140gr if all the stars align. The 30-06 with the 165gr will get 2950fps. When you look at the details, there is a substantial difference between the 7mm rem mag and the 30-06. The main difference is it shoots flatter.

Bingo.

At practical hunting distances, there isn't much difference in the effect on big game from a .30-06 to 7mm Mag.
The difference in drop of bullet, along with time of flight, and energy are minimal as set by what Guy stated as 300-350 yds, maybe stretching it to 400 yds. Yes, granted, the 06's usually have 22" barrels, and Remington rifles had the reputation of having somewhat sloppy chambers.
But give me a Weatherby Vanguard, or a Howa 1500 with a 24" barrel in an 06, and I'm betting the chambers are tighter, and it wouldn't be inconceivable to get over 3000 fps with a .30 cal 165 gr. Nosler BT.


HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[pharmseller]

Wow, what's with the elephant guns, guys?

If you're talking 400 yards and in, the 7mm-08 is your huckleberry.

This bull was DRT and I mean RT at 346 yards from a 140 Partition started at 2870 fps. The bullet double lunged him and exited.

This big 5x5 went maybe 90 feet before tipping over at 225 yards from a 140 AccuBond at 2850 fps. Double lung and exit.

47.5 grains of Big Game v. 72.0 grains of MagPro in my 7mm Rem Mag (I have both) is an easy decision.

It's where you hit 'em, boys.




P

 

[Guy Miner]

Indeed. Shot placement is key. No doubt about it.

Congrats on the elk!

Regards, Guy

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

Pharmseller,

First, congratulations on the elk! What magnificent animals!
Second, you're so right about the 7mm-08. It outperforms its paper ballistics a lot!
It's an offspring of the .308, which is another efficient, and performs outside its paper ballistics cartridge.
I can't wait to be whopping Wapiti with my new Ruger American Rifle in .308, or with my vintage Savage 99C, also in, you got it! .308!
I'm thinking the 168 gr AccuBond at 2700-2800fps will settle an elks hash rather quickly!
Plus, it'll save on recoil and ear shattering booms from an 06 or a 7mm Mag.

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[pharmseller]

Pharmseller,

First, congratulations on the elk! What magnificent animals!
Second, you're so right about the 7mm-08. It outperforms its paper ballistics a lot!
It's an offspring of the .308, which is another efficient, and performs outside its paper ballistics cartridge.
I can't wait to be whopping Wapiti with my new Ruger American Rifle in .308, or with my vintage Savage 99C, also in, you got it! .308!
I'm thinking the 168 gr AccuBond at 2700-2800fps will settle an elks hash rather quickly!
Plus, it'll save on recoil and ear shattering booms from an 06 or a 7mm Mag.

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

You're singing my tune.

AccuBond flavors include 165 grain. Ballistic Tip (one of my favorites) come in 168 grain. Speaking of which, my brother killed this 320" class bull a couple of years ago with my handloads, 168 BT over 60 grains of Hunter from his Tikka .30-06.

This pic is famous (infamous?) on another board. Same 140 PT load from my 7mm-08, one shot (didn't exit) two steps forward, two steps back, and down, 2013 4x4 in the Oregon Cascades:

I've shot smaller bulls with bigger cartridges that didn't drop as quickly.




P

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

Pharmseller,

I stand corrected. Yes, I just might use a 168 grain BT, or a 165 grain AccuBond.
I myself have shot a fork horned mule deer with a .300 Win Mag, 3 times! It didn't go down like I thought it would have. All 3 shots to the the vitals, and it just sauntered a little ways, then plopped over on It's left side, dead.
So having excess energy can be detrimental to smaller bodied animals, because the bullet just zips through without much resistance. The left side of the rib cage had a hole in it the size of my fist, but not much internal damage to the heart and lungs.
I'm drooling just thinking what the little ol' .308 might do! I know it's a proven performer. Not flashy, or kills like Thor's Hammer, but just gets the job done.
One of my favorite writers, John Wooters, said it was the 95% North American solution! And you know what?!? I think he was as close to being right as anyone will ever get. May God rest his soul.

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[pharmseller]

Pharmseller,

I stand corrected. Yes, I just might use a 168 grain BT, or a 165 grain AccuBond.
I myself have shot a fork horned mule deer with a .300 Win Mag, 3 times! It didn't go down like I thought it would have. All 3 shots to the the vitals, and it just sauntered a little ways, then plopped over on It's left side, dead.
So having excess energy can be detrimental to smaller bodied animals, because the bullet just zips through without much resistance. The left side of the rib cage had a hole in it the size of my fist, but not much internal damage to the heart and lungs.
I'm drooling just thinking what the little ol' .308 might do! I know it's a proven performer. Not flashy, or kills like Thor's Hammer, but just gets the job done.
One of my favorite writers, John Wooters, said it was the 95% North American solution! And you know what?!? I think he was as close to being right as anyone will ever get. May God rest his soul.

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

A guy on another board did a real-world bullet test using moo cow leg bones. He shot several different bullets into the big knuckle and measured penetration, weight retention, and expansion. The 168 BT performed as well or better than several other bullets. I developed loads for different .30-06s based on this data.

I'll look for the link.



P

 

[BF375]

7mm ballistic tip 140gr has a sd of .248, bc of .485 / .30 ballistic tip 165gr has a sd of .248, bc of .475. The 7mm rem mag will get 3300fps with the 140gr if all the stars align. The 30-06 with the 165gr will get 2950fps. When you look at the details, there is a substantial difference between the 7mm rem mag and the 30-06. The main difference is it shoots flatter.

Bingo.

At practical hunting distances, there isn't much difference in the effect on big game from a .30-06 to 7mm Mag.
The difference in drop of bullet, along with time of flight, and energy are minimal as set by what Guy stated as 300-350 yds, maybe stretching it to 400 yds. Yes, granted, the 06's usually have 22" barrels, and Remington rifles had the reputation of having somewhat sloppy chambers.
But give me a Weatherby Vanguard, or a Howa 1500 with a 24" barrel in an 06, and I'm betting the chambers are tighter, and it wouldn't be inconceivable to get over 3000 fps with a .30 cal 165 gr. Nosler BT.


HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

The 7mm-140 gr load will still shoot flatter than the 30/06-165 at any distance from 300 yards to 600.

Tight chambers have almost no effect on velocity; it's barrels and throats that do that.

John Wooters loved the 308 for his deer hunting in East Texas thickets. For his western elk and mule deer hunting he was a fan of the 7 Rem Mag.His favorite customer was a Mauser 280 built by Joe Bailickie. I spent some time with Wooters when he was in the area for a get together.

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

Pharmseller,

I stand corrected. Yes, I just might use a 168 grain BT, or a 165 grain AccuBond.
I myself have shot a fork horned mule deer with a .300 Win Mag, 3 times! It didn't go down like I thought it would have. All 3 shots to the the vitals, and it just sauntered a little ways, then plopped over on It's left side, dead.
So having excess energy can be detrimental to smaller bodied animals, because the bullet just zips through without much resistance. The left side of the rib cage had a hole in it the size of my fist, but not much internal damage to the heart and lungs.
I'm drooling just thinking what the little ol' .308 might do! I know it's a proven performer. Not flashy, or kills like Thor's Hammer, but just gets the job done.
One of my favorite writers, John Wooters, said it was the 95% North American solution! And you know what?!? I think he was as close to being right as anyone will ever get. May God rest his soul.

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

A guy on another board did a real-world bullet test using moo cow leg bones. He shot several different bullets into the big knuckle and measured penetration, weight retention, and expansion. The 168 BT performed as well or better than several other bullets. I developed loads for different .30-06s based on this data.

I'll look for the link.



P

That would be awesome info!
Thank you!

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[pharmseller]

Found it.


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... 11433983/1






P

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

That's really good info!
I was wondering if the jackets on the Ballistic Tips had been beefed up, and, well that answered my question perfectly. YES, THEY CERTAINLY ARE BEING MADE STRONGER. Wow!
I never had problems before with the old ones, wouldn't expect any from the new ones.
Thank you P!

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

Well spoken by all.

I have been and will be, a very dedicated fan of the .30-06 due to my own personal and firsthand experience with this cartridge. I must say that the 7mm is also a fine caliber.

But I agree with Guy, for the average hunter, a .30-06 is never a bad choice. There is recoil, sure, it isn't a .22 that you can shoot hundreds of rounds through all day long. I have tended to load my ammo (150, 165, and 180 grain) at more "standard" velocities than you all have talked about as my Model 70 kicks with both feet and causes me to make more fliers once we get up there in power. Factory ammo is available in various weights and styles worldwide. Of all the game I have taken over the years, most have been inside of 200 yards with maybe 6 or 8 exceptions not counting coyotes. Few of the hunters I know have business shooting past about 250 yards anyways.

Being a good shot with whatever rifle you hunt with is the most important thing. Just read a story about Purl Riley Bean shooting a grizzly in the 1890's with a Winchester '73 in .44-40. He placed all 11 of his shots just so and lived to tell the tale. I feel safe saying he would've loved to have been shooting a .30-06 that day.

Dale

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

Dale,

I wholeheartedly agree with you.
After being a Magnum addict, It's refreshing to know that you don't need copious amounts of energy to get the job done right with the first well placed shot.
I now have a new respect for my dad's .30-06!

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

7mm ballistic tip 140gr has a sd of .248, bc of .485 / .30 ballistic tip 165gr has a sd of .248, bc of .475. The 7mm rem mag will get 3300fps with the 140gr if all the stars align. The 30-06 with the 165gr will get 2950fps. When you look at the details, there is a substantial difference between the 7mm rem mag and the 30-06. The main difference is it shoots flatter.

Bingo.

At practical hunting distances, there isn't much difference in the effect on big game from a .30-06 to 7mm Mag.
The difference in drop of bullet, along with time of flight, and energy are minimal as set by what Guy stated as 300-350 yds, maybe stretching it to 400 yds. Yes, granted, the 06's usually have 22" barrels, and Remington rifles had the reputation of having somewhat sloppy chambers.
But give me a Weatherby Vanguard, or a Howa 1500 with a 24" barrel in an 06, and I'm betting the chambers are tighter, and it wouldn't be inconceivable to get over 3000 fps with a .30 cal 165 gr. Nosler BT.


HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

The 7mm-140 gr load will still shoot flatter than the 30/06-165 at any distance from 300 yards to 600.

Tight chambers have almost no effect on velocity; it's barrels and throats that do that.

John Wooters loved the 308 for his deer hunting in East Texas thickets. For his western elk and mule deer hunting he was a fan of the 7 Rem Mag.His favorite customer was a Mauser 280 built by Joe Bailickie. I spent some time with Wooters when he was in the area for a get together.

That must've been something to get to know Mr. Wooters!
Yes, you're right about him on both accounts with the .308 & the 7mm Rem Mag.
He used to live in Kerrville, or there about.
Wish I could have met him and his wife.


HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[BF375]

Wooters time here was brief. He was attending an SCI gathering,so a friend and I spent a day with him.

He was a true Texas gentleman and great company. He also had a lot of hunting experience. I always liked his 280 Remington, but he was a very big fan of the 7RM as well.If anything Wooters was a very practical and knowledgeable guy.

This was at a time when MRP was the current miracle powder and hard to come by back then. He cut a deal with my friend for 2 pounds of the stuff...

 

[Darkhorse]

In the spring of 1980 or 81' I bought my first lefthanded bolt action. A M700 BDL in 7mm Rem. Mag., this was the rifle and cartridge I'd dreamed about while reading the pages of Outdoor Life and Field and Stream as a teenager. For 10 or 15 years this was my steady shooter for deer and hogs in Georgia and it took a lot of game. And in all that time I never had an opportunity to shoot anything over 100 yards.
Then I went to New Mexico for a migration elk hunt. In the valleys where we hunted the land was open and ranges long. One other hunter in camp carried a 7mag. All the rest carried larger guns with the .300 Win. predominate. Finally on the last morning I got a shot at a bull at a longer distance than what I usually practice at with nothing to rest the rifle on. But I practice a lot off offhand shooting so up comes the rifle, the guide whistles and stops the bull, I shoot and the bull just collapses. I had gotten into the spine at the shoulder area. The guide was hopping and whooping and I was pretty happy also.
We stepped it off and it was 281 long steps. Nearly 300 yards, no holdover, just shoot.
I still love that old 7 mag. but have refined my battery somewhat.

I shoot a .308 for all my timber and woods shooting. Perfect gun and cartridge for the purpose.
I shoot the 7mag. for powerlines and such for whitetails at home in Georgia when ranges max. out at 400 to 500 yards.
I shoot a .300 Win. Mag. for all western hunts when the range might be long and the game might be large. And if the conditions are right, here in Georgia also.
I also choose my bullets carefully to match the intended game.
And I consider practice paramount to success.

 

[andrewctillman]

I am old enough to have loaded the 30-06 with a 165 grain Partition with H-205 and got 2975 fps from a 22 inch barrel way back in late 70's or early 1980's. H-205 and Norma 205 were both discontinued about the same time due to pressure unpredictablity as I recall. I loaded that ammo for a couple of logger friends in Wallowa county and it killed elk very well.

Thirty years later I used RL25 in my 26 inch stainless pre64 and got over 3050 fps with the 160 AccuBond and North Fork.

Shooting Accubonds in both and using Byran Litz verified G7 BC, in a full deflection 10 mph cross wind the hot 30-06 has 2 inches more wind drift at 400 yards and only 150 fps less velocity. Not much difference especially when one is a 22 inch barrel, weighs less and kicks less.

I think the 7mm got its reputation from the fact it is going fast enough at close range, say out to 150 yards, that it frequently caused sudden death by completely destroying the heart. I have seen 30-06 failures with good bullets on big elk, including the 180 PT at a normal 2700 fps, where they run like they do forever despite a pencil sized hole through one or both lungs. (Happened to my father in law most recently).

That extra velocity and bullet and bone fragmentation of the 7mm is beneficial, but that 165 PT at 2975 had similar effect at close range for my logger friends though it does not do so well at 400 yards as the AB.

What the 30-06 gives up in velocity is somewhat made up for by its larger expanded frontal area.

By the way, great picture of the 160 gr Bitterroot. That is what a hunting bullet is supposed to look like! What was velocity and range?