brass , new vs. used

[jimbires]

I've talked with a couple different guys on new vs. used brass . I'll do seating depth tests with new brass , but I won't do any powder work up with new brass . after the load confirmed , it surprises me how the two seem to shoot close to the same POI . you can see the used brass is about 50 FPS faster in this rifle . as far as hunting with these different brass , if you're not shooting longer than a couple hundred yards you won't have a problem . you can relate this velocity change to powder temp stability too , if you're hunting close it won't matter .

 

[ShadeTree]

Jim, for me I expect better group results with fireformed cases on the next loading, but I still work my loads up like normal with new brass. I typically see improvements with fireformed cases, but like you stated, it's close enough for me with new brass as I'm not in the long-range game.

Depends a little bit on the chamber and how much new brass has to expand to fit it, as to the overall difference, and occasionally it's fairly substantial. But in general, the best powder charge and seating depth with new brass has me right there on the fireformed. But I'm testing at 100 and 200 yds with scoped rifles, so not way out there.

 

[DrMike]

I've talked with a couple different guys on new vs. used brass . I'll do seating depth tests with new brass , but I won't do any powder work up with new brass . after the load confirmed , it surprises me how the two seem to shoot close to the same POI . you can see the used brass is about 50 FPS faster in this rifle . as far as hunting with these different brass , if you're not shooting longer than a couple hundred yards you won't have a problem . you can relate this velocity change to powder temp stability too , if you're hunting close it won't matter .

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Your results mirror what I've witnessed over many years. I was more focused on finding a load for hunting than on a load that produced bug holes. In the process, I did find the exceptional load that gave me the one-hole groups, but funnily enough, they were seldom the groups that I used in the field.

 

[TackDriver284]

Jim, I like to work up loads for hunting or plinking using new brass until the batch of new brass is fireformed and tweak to finalize after. The point of impact is very close with virgin and fired brass. It's not worth wasting barrel life, powder, bullets and your time not to work up a load for hunting using new brass. You made a good point Jim.

Forgot to add,,,sometimes I get bored and experiment with a few different bullets / powders with new brass and see what results I get and take notes. Later down the road, when the batch of new brass is all fireformed, I'll go back to my notes and pick my loads and tweak them for my hunting applications. It is fun.

 

[SJB358]

I see about the same as Jim.

Jim, I’d like to see if there is as much difference with a false shouldered case with new brass vs being once fired.

I am not sure I’ve tried it since, like you, I fire all my hunting brass at least once, if not 10x before I’m hunting with it

 

[jimbires]

I was looking through my pics for something and stumbled onto these , I thought I'd post them up . they are from Sept 2016 . I thought with shooting season about to start , and components so hard to get , this might give some guys a nudge to try a new powder , or dig out an old powder that wasn't known for being temp stable , instead of sitting out a shooting season . at times I think we all get to wrapped up in the marketing hype , and internet lore .

I'm glad you guys have seen the same .

Scotty , I'll try to remember to test a few false shoulder new cases , against the same brand case that's been fired a time or two . this will be easy for me , " IF " I remember . my 7 rem mag brass is used up . I bought ADG brass for it . by the time I get things figured out , I'll have a few fire formed brass to test against the false shouldered brass on the same range trip .

 

[SJB358]

I was looking through my pics for something and stumbled onto these , I thought I'd post them up . they are from Sept 2016 . I thought with shooting season about to start , and components so hard to get , this might give some guys a nudge to try a new powder , or dig out an old powder that wasn't known for being temp stable , instead of sitting out a shooting season . at times I think we all get to wrapped up in the marketing hype , and internet lore .

I'm glad you guys have seen the same .

Scotty , I'll try to remember to test a few false shoulder new cases , against the same brand case that's been fired a time or two . this will be easy for me , " IF " I remember . my 7 rem mag brass is used up . I bought ADG brass for it . by the time I get things figured out , I'll have a few fire formed brass to test against the false shouldered brass on the same range trip .

I agree Jim. I used a lot of RL22 when I was younger. I heard horrible tales of woe for it and RL19. Neither gave me much trouble if I worked my loads around the 50-60 degree marks. They worked fine down into the teens. I know the extremes might’ve shown weakness but I just never saw it. I use 23 and 26 today since they’re better but if I had to, I’d use 22 and 25 and close my internet down cause I know they’ll make meat for me.

and I’ll be watching for the 7 Rem shoot.

You been shooting the Mashburn much?

 

[Joec7651]

Setting a false shoulder helps a lot when firing some belted cartridges that first time. The first firing is when almost all case stretch occurs. The following will extend brass life by a large margin. Jim I know you know the procedure, this is if someone doesn’t.

To set the false shoulder run the expander into the case mouth. Then remove it from the die and size the rest of the way without it. Back the die out until it only sizes the case mouth maybe 2/3’s down the neck. Chamber the sized case and you’ll feel resistance when you close the bolt. Keep running the sizing die down until you just feel the case touch when the bolt closes. It’s similar to firing a case in an Ackley, in that the case is fire formed to your chamber without stretching. It blows the shoulder out to chamber dimension instead of stretching it to dimension from the case head. This step will give many more firings with a given set of brass before case head separation occurs. From this point just bump the shoulder back when needed. Don’t FL size and cram the shoulder back to minimum SAAMI specs, as you will have to aneal and do it all over.

I haven’t seen any change in accuracy with temperature as it relates to RL22, and I absolutely love RL25. I try not to load so close to the edge that summer temps put me over pressure. On the other end of the spectrum, I don’t think I’m a good enough shot to see a change when it gets cold. Hot is 90+ and cold is 0-10 degrees at the extreme for me.

 

[jimbires]

Scotty , I haven't been shooting much at all yet this spring . I hope this changes soon . right now I'm on the mend, so the rainy days make it easier to be home .

 

[SJB358]

Scotty , I haven't been shooting much at all yet this spring . I hope this changes soon . right now I'm on the mend, so the rainy days make it easier to be home .

I hear you. Been raining like heck down here as well. I haven’t shot mine since before last fall. I’ve been carrying it in the truck waiting to get out on the fields a bit but so far stuff is pretty soggy.

 

[jimbires]

I did some testing yesterday , at 100 yards . I have a box of ADG brass that I previously fired a few checking for powder charge adjustment due to the smaller case capacity . in second fire brass , I'm about 50 FPS to high compared to my old load . I loaded 5 rounds of once fired brass . I kept 3 new brass and did nothing to them . I did not use a mandrel in the neck , I usually do this . this ADG brass seems to have fairly tight necks , I wish I would have kept 3 more and used a neck mandrel , to see the results . the virgin brass was .014" short of my old many times fired brass . so the test was ; untouched brass , false shoulder brass , and second fire brass .

the second fire brass; was the first target I shot . the two high shots were the first two out of the gun . over winter I gave this rifle a good cleaning with foam copper cleaner , I'm assuming this is the cause of these two high shots . after the second fire this brass is still .003" short . ave velocity 3100 FPS ( I missed one velocity reading , by not arming the labradar )



the false shoulder brass ; this was the second target I shot . I did jerk the one shot . you can see the point of impact is way different than the other two targets , but the accuracy was good . the velocity was up about 53 FPS compared to the other two targets , this surprised me . I would hunt with the false shouldered brass , just adjust the scope to the ammo . after the first shot this brass is .004" short . ave velocity 3153 FPS



new untouched brass ;

info removed ; I caused a problem on this test batch .

see post # 18 for this correct info .

 

[DrMike]

Most fascinating results. One can only speculate how the results might be interpreted with other brass of varying thickness. I do enjoy seeing studies such as these. Thank you, Jim.

 

[Divernhunter]

I use new brass for all my hunting ammo. As far as different brass---I was getting very small groups with my 338win mag. Then I mixed Nosler, Win and Hornady brass and the groups where much bigger. Once I separated the brass by maker the groups got back to being very small. BUT in different places on the target. They also were at different average FPS. The Nosler was the slowest with the Win in the middle and the Hornady the fastest. This has held true with other cartridges also. I was able to get my 257W to shoot at the same POI with 100gr TTSX and 120gr Swift A-Fames by changing brass and different powders while still using some of the fastest loads

 

[Blkram]

It is all relative to your shooting needs.
The old suggestion of using new brass came from those with negative field experience witnessed by guides and PH's where it meant the difference in their clients securing game in the field. Even more importantly, from bad experiences with used brass hunting loads that failed when using on dangerous game in Africa and/or Alaska.
There was a recent article penned by a woman hunter and I believe her brother, hunting brown bear in Alaska (IIRC) and had issues with their RUM cartridge handloads in used brass on the big bruin.
Long story short, the wounded bear was after them and they ran and found shelter behind large boulders on the mountainside and had to resort to finishing the bear with their backup handgun, because the primer fell out of the primer pocket and jammed the action on the bolt action rifle rendering it useless.
It may not happen to everyone, but all it has to happen is once for you!
And you may change your thinking...and practice!
I prefer to eliminate the potential risk by using new brass for hunting. I may not hunt dangerous game very often, but do hunt a variety of other game (which could all become dangerous to me under the wrong circumstances) in country where dangerous game exists. Just my opinion and practice.

 

[DrMike]

I only use new brass or brass that has had no more than one firing in my hunting loads. At the bench, brass lasts me a long time.

 

[RL338]

I've talked with a couple different guys on new vs. used brass . I'll do seating depth tests with new brass , but I won't do any powder work up with new brass . after the load confirmed , it surprises me how the two seem to shoot close to the same POI . you can see the used brass is about 50 FPS faster in this rifle . as far as hunting with these different brass , if you're not shooting longer than a couple hundred yards you won't have a problem . you can relate this velocity change to powder temp stability too , if you're hunting close it won't matter .

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That sounds about right what I have seen. The only time I never had velocity increased was in heavy compressed loads in my 416 and 460 Wbys. New , 1x , and 2x very little change on these 2.

 

[jimbires]

I think I've figured out what went wrong with the out of the box brass , it was caused by me over looking a very basic step . I deleted the bad info from my post #11 . I'll post up new info after I get to the range and test .

 

[jimbires]

I thought I had figured out why the virgin untouched brass shot so poorly for me . so I corrected that mistake , and reshot a target yesterday . this is more what I had expected . I shot one shot off target , to prep the barrel , then fired these three . the outside temp was very close to the temp of the previous test , 55*F . the velocity is 3056 FPS ave , and gave good accuracy . this is new ADG brass . same lot number , different box . this virgin brass that had necks resized on a mandrel , and I also cut a nice inside neck chamfer with a VLD chamfer tool .since I'm loading flat base bullets in this combo , the two steps above should have been done for the prior test . I have little experience with ADG brass , but so far I really like the stuff . if it holds up well, I'll keep buying it .

 

[DrMike]

Nothing wrong with that load. Glad you worked it out. It is interesting how something that doesn't seem all that important can make such a massive difference. I use a mandrel on all brass and have used a VLD chamfer for so long that I can't remember when I didn't use it. I've just taken for granted that this is done by others. I'll have to adjust my thinking. Congratulations on a fine load and some fine riflery.

 

[jimbires]

I'd like to say I always run my new brass through my full length die , and also chamfer the necks . I dropped the ball. I just failed to do it this time . I must have been in a hurry . maybe just not thinking , it's happened before .

I gave the brass a good look over , virgin and fired , this brass is nice . the necks are about .002" thicker than Winchester brass . out of the box the necks are .003" under bullet diameter . the neck wall thickness is very true . I measured 5 pieces and the neck run out was about .0003 " max . it's hard to turn necks better than that . I get a couple more fires on a few of these I'll water capacity check a few , to see how well that checks out .