Duplicating 7mm-08 performance in a .30-06

pharmseller

Handloader
Feb 13, 2012
550
79
My son killed his first buck two years ago using a reduced recoil load of Varget and 150 grain Nosler Accubonds (NAB) out of a Vanguard Back Country in .30-06. The rifle has a 24" barrel but is fairly light, and he shoots it well. The recoil using Varget is quite mild.

This year we are stepping up to hunt elk in the Cascades. While the shot, if he gets one, will be under 100 yards, I wanted to up the juice, so to speak, and see how close I could get to the ballistics of my 7mm-08 load using 140 grain Partitions (NP).

I opened my ballistics program and played with velocity figures for the 150 NAB until the energy figures approximated the 140 NP. I found my target muzzle velocity (MV) to be 2785 ft/sec. I then calculated the powder charge that corresponded with this MV, using the powders I had on hand. Since one of my primary goals was to keep recoil as low as possible, I looked at an online recoil calculator to see how each charge would push back.

Then I pulled my head out of my essential orifice and realized that I had never chrongraphed the Varget load in his rifle. I originally loaded three different powder charges and had him shoot each one. He didn't know which load he was shooting but I did. I selected the highest load he was comfortable shooting and called it good. I looked at velocity in a Tikka and an A-Bolt, getting right at 2650 MV, but never the Back Country. So I set up the chrono and ran 3 shots over it. The shells were in my office, nice and cool, so the heat wasn't a factor, but I'll still repeat the excercise later this fall when the temps get down.

As it turns out, velocity averaged 2824 ft/sec, with a low ES (24). This number tracks with Hodgdon's data. I compared this MV to my 140 NP numbers (2884 MV) and the 150 NAB has about a 50 ft/lb edge as far out as you'd care to go. He's been shooting a serious load this whole time. Sighting in 2.5" high at 100 yards, his MPBR is 275.

So you handloaders out there, if you're looking for a good youth load in a .30-06, try 48 grains of Varget with a 150 grain NAB and WLR primers. In a 24" barrel it will generate almost 1800 ft/lbs clear out to 300 yards, which is farther than most young hunters can shoot anyway. And if you hold to the "twice the ft/lbs as the animal weighs" school, it's easily a 400 yard load.



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That's good info friend. I appreciate you sharing. Another I am fond of with 150 grain bullets is the old 52 grains of 4064. That is getting 2900 flat out of my 24" tube, more likely 2800-2825 in 22" tubes but the kick is very pleasant and it shoots pretty tight.

Glad to hear another young man is getting his start the right way with a good bolt-action .30-06.

Good luck in the Cascades, you'll find elk there.
 
I guess kids are softer today? My first rifle was a SMLE .303 with metal butt plate. My second rifle was a Springfield .30-06 sporter with metal butt plate. Did not seem to bother me when I was 14 and weighed 120 pounds?

I was so happy to get my own rifle that I would have taken a .450/400 NE if it was offered and I could afford the ammo?
 
Love It !! This is the 1st time I've seen someone who admitted to trying to get a '06 to match a 7mm-08, and not the other way around. Energy wise you should sitting quite well for as far as you can accurately shoot, but I would think you might see a little less penetration than that of a 140 NP (not that it should really matter).
 
Wow, that does sound like a pretty cool load.. Glad it matched right up for ya too.. Can't beat easy load work like that.

Hope to see your boy with a big elk this Fall. I am sure that combo would get it done with ease..
 
Oldtrader3":19cwl21m said:
I guess kids are softer today? My first rifle was a SMLE .303 with metal butt plate. My second rifle was a Springfield .30-06 sporter with metal butt plate. Did not seem to bother me when I was 14 and weighed 120 pounds?

I was so happy to get my own rifle that I would have taken a .450/400 NE if it was offered and I could afford the ammo?


I was a skinny 15 year old when I got my first .30-06, a model 70. That thing kicked the crap out of me. I was afraid of that rifle for years. So maybe I'm a little more sensitive to bringing along a new shooter.

But I do know a few things about the results of my approach:

No flinching.

Darn good shot.

Confidence, confidence, confidence.

He enjoys the range time.

Plenty of energy to kill whatever he's shooting at, at distances he's likely to shoot them.

And here's something I found out recently: our boys used the M1 Garand with 150 grain bullets going 2740-2800 to kill the enemy quite nicely. Granted, humans are easier to kill (and wounding was acceptible as well) than big bull elk, but it puts my AccuBond load in a little different perspective.



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There is nothing to be gained (save for crass laughter at the expense of a callow youth) by having them shoot a cartridge that generates a flinch. I have always been sensitive to ensure that initial experiences for young shooters was a pleasure and not a terrifying experience.
 
I know, I know but I see kids today and they look like marshmallow men? Never bothered me to shoot a .303 or .30-06 and my shooting speaks for itself. I do remember all the poor little boys at Ft Dix, Basic Training, (from Boston, Philadelphia and New Yawk City) crying like little babies when they shot the M-1 Garand rifle though. The trainees from Maine, Vermont and Tennessee just laughed at them. Sorry, I am not being crass, just wondering? I am not including young girls.

My grandson shot a .45-70 Marlin with 350 Hornady's @ 1800 fps as his first centerfire. Then I gave him a .280 Rem, Browning and a 12 ga SX2 Winchester for Christmas and his 15th birthday.

But then, I was working as a diamond driller in a mine in Quebec, 12 hours a day, six days a week when I was 16 years old in the -20 to -40*F temperatures on a tripod with two 24 inch pipe wrenches to break rods apart! You drill when it is frozen.
 
Oldtrader3":2fzjkcc2 said:
I know, I know but I see kids today and they look like marshmallow men? Never bothered me to shoot a .303 or .30-06 and my shooting speaks for itself. I do remember all the poor little boys at Ft Dix, Basic Training, (from Boston, Philadelphia and New Yawk City) crying like little babies when they shot the M-1 Garand rifle though. The trainees from Maine, Vermont and Tennessee just laughed at them. Sorry, I am not being crass, just wondering? I am not including young girls.

My grandson shot a .45-70 Marlin with 350 Hornady's @ 1800 fps as his first centerfire. Then I gave him a .280 Rem, Browning and a 12 ga SX2 Winchester for Christmas and his 15th birthday.

But then, I was working as a diamond driller in a mine in Quebec, 12 hours a day, six days a week when I was 16 years old in the -20 to -40*F temperatures on a tripod with two 24 inch pipe wrenches to break rods apart! You drill when it is frozen.


I'm sure you don't mean it and maybe I'm being sensitive (we're talking about my boy here) but you seem to be coming off all hairy chested walked 14 miles to school barefoot in the snow uphill both ways everyone who had it easier is a wimp.

Ain't nothing marshmallow about my boy. He can run a trapline, skin a coon, pull a crab pot, kill and gut a deer, field strip a 1911, and cook dad his breakfast.

I don't want him to develop a flinch, so I'm starting him out slow. Great that your bloodline can handle a .45-70 and kill bears with their teeth. I'd rather make sure he can handle recoil before he steps up to the big leagues. He can kill whatever he shoots at with what he has now.

And thank you for your service.




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Oldtrader3":2ml0pijb said:
I guess kids are softer today? My first rifle was a SMLE .303 with metal butt plate. My second rifle was a Springfield .30-06 sporter with metal butt plate. Did not seem to bother me when I was 14 and weighed 120 pounds??


I don't know about that OT3... some kids are softer today, some just lack somebody to take them out there. I've hauled a lot of "marshmallow" kids out there...they consistently surprise me.

But, in the "ye olde" days we sure screwed up a lot of young shooters by handing them granddad's old smoke pole. I still run into those guys- full grown 40 and 50 year olds now- they still flinch at moderate recoil and clamp their eyes shut before yanking the trigger. Sometimes you can cure them, sometimes you can't.

A moderate 150gr '06 load should do the trick on an elk though.
 
I give! I made my point and my point is lost with most of you in this discussion. My half (French Canadian) brother is a real pussy but I just figured his mother made him that way? Things are different now and I am nearly 72 years old. I took all these things as a challenge to grow up but apparently that trail is no longer open in this country. The America of mountain men is obviously over, I get it and I pass.

However, FYI, I skied or walked 4 miles round trip to school in Maine. Went to the same 2 room schoolhouse that my grandmother attended in the 1870's. Pot bellied stoves and an outhouse at school and home. It got down to -30*F.

I slept with a newspaper covered brick (in Maine) in bed with buffalo robes because we had no central heat. Only a kerosene stove and fireplace downstairs. I carried water from an outside well in buckets for my grandmother to cook with. Ice from our breath covered the windows and furniture in my bedroom in the morning. I carried my rifle to school hunting deer in High school and left it, unloaded, in the coat room. Etc. etc. Killed my first deer with a .380 1911 Browning (head shot).

I guess things are just different now?
 
Oldtrader3":3nzbg6s6 said:
I give! I made my point and my point is lost with most of you in this discussion. My half (French Canadian) brother is a real pussy but I just figured his mother made him that way? Things are different now and I am nearly 72 years old. I took all these things as a challenge to grow up but apparently that trail is no longer open in this country. The America of mountain men is obviously over, I get it and I pass.

However, FYI, I skied or walked 4 miles round trip to school in Maine. Went to the same 2 room schoolhouse that my grandmother attended in the 1870's. Pot bellied stoves and an outhouse at school and home. It got down to -30*F.

I slept with a newspaper covered brick (in Maine) in bed with buffalo robes because we had no central heat. Only a kerosene stove and fireplace downstairs. I carried water from an outside well in buckets for my grandmother to cook with. Ice from our breath covered the windows and furniture in my bedroom in the morning. I carried my rifle to school hunting deer in High school and left it, unloaded, in the coat room. Etc. etc. Killed my first deer with a .380 1911 Browning (head shot).

I guess things are just different now?


Good for you. Unfortunately, this thread is about a good load for my son in his .30-06, not you. If you'd like to open a new thread about how tough you are, be my guest. In the meantime, reread the part about what my son can do. If he had to be a mountan man, he could. I'm danged blessed to be able to provide for him in a way that many in the past could not.



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I made my point and it was not about you or your son. You are the one who made it personal. However, if you want to get personal, save your criticism for someone who cares what you think?

I was just joshing, but I guess I can not do that with you? People like you are part of the critical element that will result in our guns being taken from us? Find a sense of humor, Dude!

Besides you don't make the rules here and I don't report to you, so, loosen up a little before your head explodes? Don't thank me for my service unless you have served. It strikes me as insincere!
 
Oldtrader3":1qu117y3 said:
I made my point and it was not about you or your son. You are the one who made it personal. However, if you want to get personal, save your criticism for someone who cares what you think?

I was just joshing, but I guess I can not do that with you? People like you are part of the critical element that will result in our guns being taken from us? Find a sense of humor, Dude!

Besides you don't make the rules here and I don't report to you, so, loosen up a little before your head explodes?

Yes, we all know you made your point. You did it twice. You slept with a hot brick, ate wood shavings, and sold matches on the street corner. I get it. I wasn't impressed either time. My sense of humor gets thin when I think my boy is being insulted. Get to know him before you intimate that he is soft.

And saying that people like me are part of the critical element (whatever that means) that will result in our guns being taken from us is absurd to the point of humor.

If you have something positive to contribute I'd love to hear it. If you're just going to tell me how you head shot deer with your slingshot and had to gut it with a sharp rock, save it.



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Sorry that I was born with a sense of humor? You can't please everyone! Blow the sarcasm out your ear Jock Boy, Salesman!!

I have been contributing here for many years, even before you got here, so lighten up? Yuppies always get their yap lit when someone talks about being poor. calm down now!

Besides, I said that I was not talking specifically about you, got it? Or do I have to say it again?
 
Pharmseller sounds like you have a good plan, nothing wrong at all with a somewhat reduced load, it will still work very well.
 
gerry":2564fgw6 said:
Pharmseller sounds like you have a good plan, nothing wrong at all with a somewhat reduced load, it will still work very well.
I agree with Gerry.

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