- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,085
- 2,624
For you?
We're talking factory rifles for big game hunting. What do you consider acceptable?
We're talking factory rifles for big game hunting. What do you consider acceptable?
Factory guns...... What is acceptable accuracy.....
- Thread starter FOTIS
- Start date
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 36,978
- 5,219
I haven't shot a factory rifle in some time that would not give me MOA accuracy after a break-in. At this point, every rifle in my safe is a factory rifle. The only changes I've made are to set the trigger to 3 lbs and in some instances put on a decent pad, and on a couple rebed the action. All of my rifles, with one exception, give me at least 0.5 MOA. That makes me happy for hunting.
Teknys
Handloader
- Jan 14, 2008
- 789
- 215
MOA
- Thread starter
- #5
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,085
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I must admit that I am anal but not as much as I use to be.
I like .75" or less from a BG rifle and .5" or less from a varmint gun.
3 shots group are ok. I never shoot more than 3 in a row.
I like .75" or less from a BG rifle and .5" or less from a varmint gun.
3 shots group are ok. I never shoot more than 3 in a row.
- Nov 4, 2004
- 24,415
- 6,796
My min requirement in a bolt gun is MOA.
Having said that, every M700 I have ever worked with has shot well under MOA. I have several that will shoot .5 MOA with hand loads. Even my Marlin 1895 Guide gun in 45-70 shoots under .5" at 100 yds!
JD338
Having said that, every M700 I have ever worked with has shot well under MOA. I have several that will shoot .5 MOA with hand loads. Even my Marlin 1895 Guide gun in 45-70 shoots under .5" at 100 yds!
JD338
I, personally, want 3/4" or less, but I'm too freaking picky! I have never "built" a rifle, but have wanted to for a looong time, just never had the funds or know a good 'smith close to me I'd trust to do it. I've got several stock rifles that shoot sub .75 moa, if it doesn't, it hits the trading post. The only rifles I have that wont shoot sub moa is a Marlin 336 .35( which I dont need it to) and a BAR Lightweight Carbine .308 that I havn't had time to really work with it that much, which is another post in the near future.
Powerstroke
Handloader
- Feb 24, 2006
- 1,792
- 33
I'm with POP - My hunting calibers I'm fine with MOA - My varmint rounds I expect more out of.
I have yet to own a Rem 700 that hasn't done that for me out of the box - some of them take a little more work
finding that right load combo, but they have all come around.
I have yet to own a Rem 700 that hasn't done that for me out of the box - some of them take a little more work
finding that right load combo, but they have all come around.
Bolt gun MOA or better.
I've got a Marlin 30-30 and a Rem 740 in 280 that will both shoot MOA as well.
Now,my DPMS AR 15 carbine,IF it ever shot anything under 3 inches at 100 yards I'd fall off the bench. :shock:
I'm thinking real seriosly about building a varmit upper for this.
I've never had a rifle built or rebarreled but I'm about to.Everything I own is factory,all have had trigger work and most have been bedded.
My delima now is 280Ackley or 7 STW :?:
Howard
I've got a Marlin 30-30 and a Rem 740 in 280 that will both shoot MOA as well.
Now,my DPMS AR 15 carbine,IF it ever shot anything under 3 inches at 100 yards I'd fall off the bench. :shock:
I'm thinking real seriosly about building a varmit upper for this.
I've never had a rifle built or rebarreled but I'm about to.Everything I own is factory,all have had trigger work and most have been bedded.
My delima now is 280Ackley or 7 STW :?:
Howard
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 36,978
- 5,219
MOA or better is acceptable today. However, it hasn't been all that many years ago that 2 MOA was a "tack driver." The manufacturers are presenting us a far better product today.
Currently, all my stuff will place 3 shots into 3/4" or less @ 100 yards with proper hunting bullets. These are Remington , Weatherby or Savage out-of-the-box rifles. The scopes are mid-priced ones, mostly Leupold, although I have a Vortex Viper on one. The triggers have been set to 3# or less and all gun screws have been torqued to proper spec. pounds. I have found that scopes must be square with the bore of the rifle to get good groups at longer distances.
Think about it, as there are things you can do to help your factory rifle be it's best.
Jim
Think about it, as there are things you can do to help your factory rifle be it's best.
Jim
Bolt action and single shots out of the box should be MOA for hunting rifles and less for varmint setups. Assuming that you spend a little time working with them and feed them good ammo. AR rifles should do the same but it might take a little more work. The AR carbines you will most likely have to settle for less. A lever gun in an accurate caliber should also be able to acheive MOA. In an open sighted brush gun that might be too much to ask for.
Personally I would not buy a hunting auto, pump, or lever gun unless I could be assured that they can shoot to that standard.
I recall an article showcasing Remingtons New Auto I believe it was the Woodsman or something like that. It had a ten pound trigger pull-I would not take that rifle hunting even if you gave it to me. One of the ways to get more accuracy out of manufactors is to insist upon it. The fact that it has a ten pound trigger tells me that the designer was more concerned about lawyers then accuracy.
Personally I would not buy a hunting auto, pump, or lever gun unless I could be assured that they can shoot to that standard.
I recall an article showcasing Remingtons New Auto I believe it was the Woodsman or something like that. It had a ten pound trigger pull-I would not take that rifle hunting even if you gave it to me. One of the ways to get more accuracy out of manufactors is to insist upon it. The fact that it has a ten pound trigger tells me that the designer was more concerned about lawyers then accuracy.
I look for 1" groups from my hunting rifles. All of them do it, including my 1895G 45-70. I do have one Ruger Hawkeye that doesn't seem to be a 1" rifle, more like 1.25 to 1.5". It is very consistent though. I also haven't spent as much time with it as I have with my others. I guess I look for decent consistency with my rifles and with decently put together loads, they will all shoot into and inch with enough work. Scotty
Guys, I hate to be the dissenting voice here, but 1.5" at 100 is fine for most hunting rifles. Most people don't take shots beyond 200 yds and fewer still at 300 and 400. 1.5 at 100 is still a 6 inch group at 400 yds into a kill target of 9 inches.
Most of us on this forum load for better accuracy and we all want that 1 hole group. I personally am not satisfied until I get to a 0.5 inch group, but that is far better than I actually need. When I guide, I have the hunter shoot a 3 shot group and then determine how close I need to get him to an animal. Generally, I won't let the hunter take any shots over 200 yds unless I am very impressed with his shooting. Before anyone gets upset, I know that hunting speed goats will require long shots at times, and here in CA we shoot deer cross canyon at 300 yds fairly often. Still, 1.5 will put the bullet into the kill zone. Usually, the rest and the situation forces less accuracy than the rifle.
Hardpan
Most of us on this forum load for better accuracy and we all want that 1 hole group. I personally am not satisfied until I get to a 0.5 inch group, but that is far better than I actually need. When I guide, I have the hunter shoot a 3 shot group and then determine how close I need to get him to an animal. Generally, I won't let the hunter take any shots over 200 yds unless I am very impressed with his shooting. Before anyone gets upset, I know that hunting speed goats will require long shots at times, and here in CA we shoot deer cross canyon at 300 yds fairly often. Still, 1.5 will put the bullet into the kill zone. Usually, the rest and the situation forces less accuracy than the rifle.
Hardpan
Hardpan, point taken and a bit of a clarification on my part. In my little mind I was thinking more along the line of potential, in other words I should be able to develope a load that will shot MOA without too much trouble.
You are right a 2" group at 100 yards is a 4 inch group at 200 yards and an 8" group at 400 yards. Nor I have I ever found a bench rest handy when hunting. I would be the first to admit that if given the choice I would go with a load that was grouping 1.5" but 100 ft/s faster than a load that was grouping 3/4".
To check my rifle before going a field I put two clay birds out at 200 yards. Using my fanny pack as a rest from a sitting position if I can break both birds with a total of three or less shots I figure I am good to go.
You are right a 2" group at 100 yards is a 4 inch group at 200 yards and an 8" group at 400 yards. Nor I have I ever found a bench rest handy when hunting. I would be the first to admit that if given the choice I would go with a load that was grouping 1.5" but 100 ft/s faster than a load that was grouping 3/4".
To check my rifle before going a field I put two clay birds out at 200 yards. Using my fanny pack as a rest from a sitting position if I can break both birds with a total of three or less shots I figure I am good to go.
elkeater2
Handloader
- Jan 5, 2009
- 759
- 72
For years, my main big game rifle was a 7mm-06 on a really old Gewehr M98 action with a Douglas barrel. Restocked twice, glass bedded, then floated the barrel. It would shoot about 1 1/4" groups and that was good enough. We killed a pile of game together.
After getting newer rifles and much more involved with all aspects of shooting and handloading, I decided to see what I could do with the old gun. First, I cleaned the barrel really well with shooter's choice. (I didn't used to know what a clean barrel was...)Polished it with JB's Boreshine. Cleaned it again. There was a fair amount of copper fouling. I polished up the crown just to make sure it was good. Then I made up a new batch of cases from W-W '06 brass. Trimmed cleaned, deburred the primer pockets. Developed a new load - and the first 3 shots @ 100yds. with a 7 power scope were all touching!! Further groups were all about .60 to .75". Woohoo!!
Point is, if it had continued to shoot those 1 1/4" groups I would have been fine with it. It had proven itself acceptable long ago. At the same time, a little more knowledge and diligence on my part proved what a real shooter it was so now I'm really happy with it. I think for me that's what being on this site and gleaning a little bit here and there is all about. I am beginning to think there is something that can be done with most any rifle that doesn't group MOA, but slightly more is just fine for hunting.
After getting newer rifles and much more involved with all aspects of shooting and handloading, I decided to see what I could do with the old gun. First, I cleaned the barrel really well with shooter's choice. (I didn't used to know what a clean barrel was...)Polished it with JB's Boreshine. Cleaned it again. There was a fair amount of copper fouling. I polished up the crown just to make sure it was good. Then I made up a new batch of cases from W-W '06 brass. Trimmed cleaned, deburred the primer pockets. Developed a new load - and the first 3 shots @ 100yds. with a 7 power scope were all touching!! Further groups were all about .60 to .75". Woohoo!!
Point is, if it had continued to shoot those 1 1/4" groups I would have been fine with it. It had proven itself acceptable long ago. At the same time, a little more knowledge and diligence on my part proved what a real shooter it was so now I'm really happy with it. I think for me that's what being on this site and gleaning a little bit here and there is all about. I am beginning to think there is something that can be done with most any rifle that doesn't group MOA, but slightly more is just fine for hunting.
roysclockgun
Handloader
- Dec 17, 2005
- 736
- 0
I work with hand loading until I can get four out of five rounds inside 1" at 100 yards with a newly acquired hunting rifle. I have not been lucky enough to get that on the first try at hand loading for a big game rifle. Years ago, I did not allow myself that one out of five flyers, but at my current age I seem not to be able to be that consistant. The flyer will enlarge the group of five to maybe 2 or 2 1/2", at the most. With that sort of group I have no worries about bagging deer or pronghorn. The longest shot that I ever had to make on game was 404 yards on a mule deer buck. He was hit hard on the first shot, but needed one more to put him down.
By what I now see at the range, very few people who hunt deer or bigger game, practice enough and the vast majority use factory ammo in their bullet weight choice. Those people are ecstatic when they can put five rounds inside four inches at 100 yards. And, truth be known they will seldom miss on the game animal if they have time to get a steady rest and do their part. I wager that the vast majority of shots on white tail deer are inside 100 yards. For that reason the un-scoped 30-30 lever action rifle may still be up there in the ratings as one of the most used deer rifles, east of the Mississippi River. I don't remember ever seeing a deer hunter check out his un-scoped thuty-thuty and do much better than five shoots inside five inches at 100 yards, and yet, they still check in their bucks every year.
Steven
By what I now see at the range, very few people who hunt deer or bigger game, practice enough and the vast majority use factory ammo in their bullet weight choice. Those people are ecstatic when they can put five rounds inside four inches at 100 yards. And, truth be known they will seldom miss on the game animal if they have time to get a steady rest and do their part. I wager that the vast majority of shots on white tail deer are inside 100 yards. For that reason the un-scoped 30-30 lever action rifle may still be up there in the ratings as one of the most used deer rifles, east of the Mississippi River. I don't remember ever seeing a deer hunter check out his un-scoped thuty-thuty and do much better than five shoots inside five inches at 100 yards, and yet, they still check in their bucks every year.
Steven
