How often do you guys go above book max in powder?

[ReloadKy]

Wow, this question has sparked some very interesting conversation! I am going to have to ask more questions.

 

[badaxeriverman]

I was "young and dumb" when I first started reloading. I have since learned that if I am wanting to load above max book loads I picked the wrong caliber. I should have bought a "magnum" something or other. Its no different than going out and beating the snot out of your truck. Its not IF it will brake....but WHEN it will brake.

 

[PJGunner]

From the sounds of it, everyone on here is pretty much of the same belief as me; accuracy is more important than velocity. However getting the best of both and remaining safe is a nice bonus. I have only gone over book max a couple of times and when I did it resulted in a marriage of tiny groups, low SD / ES and the velocity that I wanted. I can only surmise that in those instances I had reached the "sweet spot" for that particular rifle, load combo. Typically I can get the velo and group that I want by staying below recommended max charge weights, I was just curious to see what all the experts on here thought.

I believe that it is possible to get an accurate load with as high a velocity as is safe for a particular rifle. he first thing to consider is pressure level as determined by SAAMI can be based of several factors. That pressure is called the maximum allowable pressure. (MAP) Take an older cartridge like the 7x57. SAAMI says 45,000 C.U.P. or 50,000 P.S.I. is the MAP for that cartridge. It's limited due to the many old 1893/92 and 96 Mauser rifles chambered to that round. What to do if you have a Winchester m70 or Remington M700 chambered to that round. Will you stick to those emasculated load levels or try for more? I'll keep this simple. In a modern reiffle as mentioned or a decent M98 Mauser do the load work up using 7-08 data. I'll bet you can get close or reach max load data without a problem. I'm currently pshing a 150 gr. Nosler Partition at 2880 FPS using a Winchester M70 Featherweight with sub MOA accuracy. I can use that same load in a commercial FN Mauser with he same accuracy as the M70. It will also work in my Rger #1A 7x57 regarding velocity but accuracy is closed to 1.25" on average. he 7x57 case will holds about two more grain of powder that the 7-08 which is why this works.
Cartridges an also be hamstrung by the factories that make them. Remington did so with the .280 Rem. and .35 Whelen asking SAAMI to restrict MAP to no higher than the 30-06. Load the .280 to the same pressure leer as the .270 aand you have a horse of a different color. How different. I can get 2910 FPS with the 160 gr. Speer Grand Slam with sub MOA groups. Note that that is pushing at the heels of the .280 AI. Same ting with the .35 Whelen. My pet load is the 225 gr. TSX at 2710, again with sub MOA accuracy.
I do all my load work ups with the use of a chronograph and just pressures somewhat by the velocity. Powders work wthin a specified minimum and maximum range dependpnd n the burning rate. Go too low aat the start and anything from a stck bullet in the barrel to an SEE episode where the rifle may or nay not be damaged. Go too high past te published mav and again a potentially blown up rifle. By using the chronograph. velocity increases and a fairly smooth rate. At or above max loads velocity aand do one of three things. Make a big jump in speed, make no change at all or actually do a reduction in speed. That's the time to back down one and a half to two grains and call it good as long as velocity and accuracy are acceptable. If not, try with a different powder.
Paul B.

 

[badaxeriverman]

The problem is is 99.9% of the people don’t have tools to measure map and pressure and psi.


All you can do is go by suggested book loads and watch for pressure along the way.

Then go out on a nice hot summer day and go try your loads and see if they spiked in pressure from the heat.

I have loads that are above bike that will shoot literally one hole at 200 yards looking like you missed the target two other times and it’s pretty darn consistent. Take that gun out for your hunting in the desert from my cold state that developed the load in I will get a sticky bolt. So my IMR power I use for 243 hot loads pressure rises in hot climates.

 

[Alaska]

This is just a question and I am looking for a little feedback, not to be chastised, lol! I had a 243 a few years ago that I could not get to shoot anywhere close to "normal" velocities even at book max on a couple of different powders. It may have been someone on here or someone else that asked the question, do you have any pressure signs at max powder? I did not and started to slowly creep up above max in .2 grain increments. I learned that in that particular 243 I could go a full grain over max and get the velocity that I should have been getting at max. I know all rifles are different and going over max has to be a slow and safe process.

There are a lot of guys on here that have developed a lot more loads for a lot more rifles than I have. How often do you all go above max to get the desired velocity / result you want in your load development?

Over the years since the early 70’s with the first Nosler No 1 manuals loads have been reduced from the Original loads by Speer in the 60’s manuals. Today I use the MAX load as my starting point most of the time. I don’t even reference manual velocity as they never match realistic loads of the same charge.

 

[badaxeriverman]

I want to get a number one manual one of these days

 

[RiverRider]

I will exceed max book charges if:
1. Velocity readings are significantly below what is commonly seen or expected, or
2. I am working with a cartridge which is endowed with SAAMI pressure specs that are "unnecessarily" reduced (.280 Rem, for example), or
3. It is apparent by observing a trend that I am likely to achieve better accuracy if I increase the powder charge modestly.

In my younger days I pursued velocity almost blindly. Over time I learned that to get that extra 75 or 100 fps cost a very significant pressure increase and way more often than not degraded accuracy, and I realized that when you're already over 2600 or 2700 fps another 75 to 100 fps does little to nothing to flatten trajectory or terminal effects.

 

[mjcmichigan]

I want to get a number one manual one of these days

Not hard to find v2 or v3.

 

[JD338]

I was gifted the Nosler #1 from NYDan which completed my collection on all 9 Nosler Reloading Guides.

JD338

 

[RL338]

I want to get a number one manual one of these

There is one on E-bay item # 326453829290

 

[badaxeriverman]

Yeah I saw it. You can find them online to used pretty easy.

 

[pharmseller]

I did, once, with TAC and 75 gr ELDM in a .223.

Thought I was safe. Nope.

Never again. No injury but I got to buy a new bolt assembly.

 

[NYDAN]

I was gifted the Nosler #1 from NYDan which completed my collection on all 9 Nosler Reloading Guides.

JD338

The fact that I had the Nosler #1 manual gives you an indication of how long ago I started rifle reloading. That was for a 264 Win. Mag. using the 140 gr. Partition. That was when I learned (by shooting into soaked phone books) that there were vast differences in the terminal performance of bullets.

 

[badaxeriverman]

I remember when my 13 year-old RCBS digital master scale went on the blink. Actually, I think it was a lot older than that. Bought it new around 2000 when I started reloading and it went out probably five or six years ago. I didn’t know it went out and was on the blink. I loaded up some ammo for my 7744. Went out and shot it. I couldn’t get the bolt open. I had to pound it open with a piece of wood. That’s never happened to me before. I was even dumb enough to try it again. After that, I called it today because I didn’t hurt the gun thank God. I went home and without even dumping that ammo first I turned on my scale to see that it was jumping up and down over 30 grains in weight increments like a slot machine spinning around. Threw it in trash and bought a charge lite.

 

[RL338]

That was when I learned (by shooting into soaked phone books) that there were vast differences in the terminal performance of bullets.

When the kids were younger we would a large pile of 1gal. milk jugs. I tested a lot of different bullets also.

 

[xphunter]

The times I have gone above max in a load manual, is when the cartridge in question was long for the action chosen...For instance the 284 Winchester.
It was set-up in short action rifles, with the bullets seated quite deep.
Put that same cartridge in a single-shot action, with a longer throat, it is a different cat.
Not a lot, but different.
In one of the older Hornady manual, there were three different loading levels or options for the 45-70, simply based on the action you were using.

Here is the other part of the puzzle, that PJ said so well.
@PJGunner said, "I believe that it is possible to get an accurate load with as high a velocity as is safe for a particular rifle. he first thing to consider is pressure level as determined by SAAMI can be based of several factors. That pressure is called the maximum allowable pressure. (MAP) Take an older cartridge like the 7x57. SAAMI says 45,000 C.U.P. or 50,000 P.S.I. is the MAP for that cartridge. It's limited due to the many old 1893/92 and 96 Mauser rifles chambered to that round. What to do if you have a Winchester m70 or Remington M700 chambered to that round. Will you stick to those emasculated load levels or try for more?"

 

[xphunter]

I use reloading manuals as a guide, not as a Bible. They do give valuable information but have different data due to different case volumes, bullet chamber dimensions, barrel length, bullet seating depth. Each manufacturer's laboratory have different methods to check pressure and velocity data. I use Quickload for extra information and work up safely and observe cases after firing to look for pressure. Most important of all, use common sense and safety protocols. I do go over max book charges for some rifles and once I see pressure, I back off on charges by a half grain or so until I find best accuracy and tweak it with bullet seating depths to tighten groups. An accurate chronograph is a very important instrument as well to determine velocity when testing your rifles at the range. My 6.5 x 284 are 3-4 grains over book if I can rememeber using H4831sc, it would not match book velocity and was in the very low pressure range after data input in Quickload in regards to H20 case fill and adjusting burn rates. Finalized the work ups with it resulting in itty bitty groups at the velocity I wanted. Works for me. The most important of all is work up safely and use common sense and don't hot rod it, if you want a 308 to go super fast, then upgrade to a 300 Weatherby. Pressures on rifle chambers have their limitations. I prefer accuracy over speed and most of my rifles are at book max or a bit over.

Well said.

I still start slow, as I have run into pressure before with lighter loads.

 

[PJGunner]

I mentioned my use of the chronograph as a way of determining a safe load. Probably the easiest way to do it is graph each load. and plot it onp the graph. A simple binder sheet works just fine. Draw three lines. On the left side of the paper you place the vertical line. On the bottom you place the horizontal line. Line number three runs from the lower left of the page to the upper right. Let's say you use .50 gr for each increase in charge. It can be whatever you normally use. On the bottom line write down the charges from left to right and it wouldn't hurt to go past a few times over the limit you originally chose just in case it shows up as safe.
Your plots won't exactly show a perfectly straight line but it will show any major deviation from the norm. In essence, whaat you'relooking for is a radical change in the linearity . So, if there is a radical jump up in velocity, or a sudden drop to a lesser speed, or if there in no change whatsoever, that's usually signifies that you are at a max pressure for your rifle. Sometime that load will work in other rifles of the same caliber and sometimes not. A classic example is my .35 Whelens. I have three. The custom Mauser will run the 225 gr. TSX at 2710 FPS. The Remington Classic will barely pass 2600 FPS and the Ruger M77RS tops out at 2550 FPS.
I also check case head expansion with a micrometer but it really isn't necessary. I usually use three shots per charge increase especially with all the off and on again shortages. I also wait two to three minutes between each shot to help keep the barrel temp down. Someone commented that they should do workups during warmer weather and I agree 100 percent. I do any of my serious load work ups and testing during Arizona's very hot summers. Tests have been done at temps running rom 95 degrees to as high as 115 degrees. Any load that proves safe at those temperatures should be just fine on a hunt.
Paul B.

 

[Hunter26]

I agree, if a load isn't safe in hot weather, then there's no place for it in my rotation. My deer season can be 100+ degrees or in the teens. I need a load that works in any temp I'm likely to encounter.

 

[ReloadKy]

My use of the chronograph is a something that I greatly appreciate and utilize.