Redoing my case prep process

[tddeangelo]

Hope everyone is having a great Christmas, and that you have a joyful day with family/friends.

My wife gave me Sinclair mandrel expander die bodies for Christmas, both the "up to 338" body and the 35-50 cal body (since I have a 35 Whelen).

I'm looking to bounce some ideas off you fine folks to see if I've got a good or bad idea here. Currently, I prep using standard FL size dies, set to bump shoulders back between 0.002" and 0.005", depending on the round/rifle, targeting minimal shoulder movement for good functioning hunting ammo.

So, as we all know, the standard sizer is using an expander ball. After talking to some folks, it seems to make some sense that an expander ball may not be the best way to approach sizing the neck.

What I'm looking to do would be decapping with a universal decapping die, using my existing FL sizer dies with no decap rod/expander ball to bump the shoulders, and then use the Sinclair dies to set the necks to proper size. I know several folks use this process, but here's what I have in mind, and I'm not sure if it's a good or bad idea....

I happen to have a Dillon 450RL progressive press. This has no removable toolhead like the 550 and 650 series presses. So yeah, I have to reset my dies whenever I change things over. I was going to have Dillon upgrade the frame to a 550 for a removable toolhead so I could to easier caliber changes, but I'm thinking maybe it should stay a 450, where there won't be "wiggle room" in the die setup. Then I'm thinking I can put my decap in Station 1, Sizer (sans expander ball) in Station 2, and mandrel expander in Station 3. Station 4 can be empty. Then, instead of three trips through the old RockChucker for my brass, I could feed brass into Station 1, pull the handle, index the plate, repeat. Prepped brass would be kicked out of Station 4 when the plate is indexed, so all I'd be doing is feed a brass, pull the handle and repeating till the batch was done. Once the dies are set, of course.

Good/bad idea? Any "gotcha's" anyone can see in this plan?

I've also read some Dillon folks will D/T the pin slots for the toolheads on the 550's and bolt them in place to make things rock solid and give more consistent seat depths. I could potentially do the frame upgrade, tap those holes, and bolt in the heads, which means I'd be just sliding in the right tool head, bolt it fast, put on the proper shell plate, and go.

In my "I hate brass prep" mind, this seems like a great idea, so I'm thinking there's gotta be something I'm missing...?

The other part of this is annealing. I've looked at building annealing machines, which is an option. I've done it with the torch and drill, and I've gotten decent results, but I am constantly worried I'm gonna fry brass. An annealing machine could be cool, but I've also though of using a lead pot (I have a few of them) and a sand bath. Figure it's worth a try before going the annealing machine route, right?

 

[truck driver]

Tom I have a 450RL also and it has been upgraded to a 550 but with the solid head not the removeable tool head. To be honest I didn't know Dillon would modify the frame on them for that.
I also have a 550RL with the removeable tool heads and have read a lot on how people have tried to make it solid with less play to achieve more accurate reloads but one fellow found after all his hard work it didn't make a bit of difference on down range accuracy in his rifle or pistol reloads. He peened the rails of the tool head and then machined them to closer tolerances to match the groves in the machine.
My 450 is set up for dedicated reloading .45apc and I use the 550 for other things like sizing.
Once you set the dies in the 450 it should be like any other press where you set the locking rings and interchange them like you would a single stage press to change calibers.
The 450 is built like a tank and I would leave it in it's original form and get a 550 if you want to set the dies up and just interchange the tool heads. I believe you can get the starter 550 with out the powder measure and primer feed, my self I like the priming system on my Dillon presses along with the powder measures for loading large quantities of pistol ammo.
To be honest I think the guys that mess with the tool heads on the 550 are just trying to fix something that isn't broke or Dillon would have already made the changes. >)

 

[Darkhorse]

Tom, I resize with a RCBS FL Sizer that has been setup trued to my rifles chamber and the expander stem has been removed. I deprime on a workbench by hand.
I prefer the expander ball by Hornady as it seems smoother in operation. I screw my Hornady sizing die into the press just far enough for the expander to clear the case neck but not size any of the case. I leave the die loose in the press so it can wiggle around to center itself then run my sized cases over this loose expander stem to size the neck. This will never pull the case necks off center and the necks remain true to the case.
I anneal by hand with hand drill and torch and the only time I fried a case was when I was learning the process, since then I've never had a problem. If your not loading hundreds at a time I see no need for a machine. Do your annealing in a dimmed room and learn to read the color. Once you get it figured out do a couple and slowly count until the case is right. Use this number as a guide only, as you approach your number pay special attention to the case color. Don't get locked in to the numbers only the case.

 

[rodell]

I use that process on certain calibers and get far straighter (and more consistent) necks than I do with the expander ball.

I don't use my Dillon, though, but my Redding turret.

 

[tddeangelo]

I have a Lyman TMag that’s currently off my bench, but it could be put into service for this purpose. The nice thing with the turret is it used a standard shell holder. For the Dillon, I just realized I’ll need shell plates for each bottle necked round I want to size.

Some are covered by the pistol kits I have or will be getting (ex plate used by the 45acp works for the 30-06 and cases with similar case heads), but some I won’t have (300 H&H, WSM, etc).

I’m not sure I want to buy a shellplate at $35/each for this.

So maybe the TMag might get used for this after all.

 

[Nimrod84]

No issues I see with the T-Mag press.

I have and continue to love my roughly 15 year old Dillon BL 550, which came without a powder dispenser, primer tubes, etc. Not trying to sell anything here, but it is still available from the factory - https://www.dillonprecision.com/bl-550- ... 25792.html.

For the money, I would really consider buying the upgrade kit and convert the 450 to 550, if I didn't like it I would convert back to the 450. https://www.dillonprecision.com/dillon- ... 23995.html

I can't speak to your question on dies, but there are two thoughts on die setup. 1 is to have the case and dies as rigid as possible, the 2nd is to have the dies float via a floating tool head or O-rings as found on the Lee dies, or some guys do the same with the cases and put O-rings on the shell holder. Both rigid and floating approaches make very good ammo, the problem is when you do either half heartedly. With the T-Mag you might want to consider the floating approach do to potential slop in the turret. A couple of guys I know with turrets float the dies with O-rings...

As such I ruled out the threaded toolhead for my Dillon BL 550; a lot of what I read was that it made no difference or that it caused problems with cases held loosely by the shell plate. The aha moment for me, was when I found a company that makes threaded toolheads and then sells a kit to make the dies float on the threaded toolhead. As such I agree 100% with TD

To be honest I think the guys that mess with the tool heads on the 550 are just trying to fix something that isn't broke or Dillon would have already made the changes. >)

The Dillon BL / RL 550 is designed to have a floating toolhead and a fairly loose shell plate that allows the cases to self center. When the toolhead can't float / move to accept a loosely held case you can potentially get a jammed case, spilled powder, etc... A number of guys have upgraded the 450 to the 550 series and they seem to love it; but I can't say from experience if there are any potential problems or what they ran into with the change.

No issue I see with going with a salt bath annealing system - looking at that myself. I need to anneal and really don't want flames in the house and it is 5 degrees F actual outside.

 

[tddeangelo]

I've been buying Lee crimp dies for my pistol calibers so that I don't have to do the dance trying to set seat depth and crimp on the seater die. So....my press setup is ponderous by the standards of some Dillon diehards, but I don't see it as a big deal. At least, not yet, lol.

I have to change the funnel, set the depth so it flares to my desired amount, set the powder charge, then put in my sizer, seater, and crimp, set them and go.

In my head, my thoughts are that one day in the future I'll drop the money for a 650XL for higher volume shooting stuff, the 450 for this purpose (case prep) and rifle stuff (my M1A, M1 Garand, and AR will all enjoy having more to eat).

For now I think I'm gonna leave the frame alone. I was going to change it out from the start, but then I went and shot a buck I couldn't NOT take to the taxi, so I used some of my play money for the deposit and needed to leave the 450 as it came to me.

I'm still confused about what the prior owner was doing. My buddy got it at a gun show (he's in Alaska), so he never spoke to the prior owner. It had a shell plate for a 303 Brit and a 9mm funnel. No clue what that would work for....

 

[truck driver]

Tom I'm not up on Euro cartridges but I think there is what they call a 9.3 Flanged which was identical to the 9.3X62.
My 550RL will do what ever I need to do for volume as will my 450/550 so I have never looked at a 650 since I don't plan on loading couple thousand rounds at a time and don't need the auto bullet and case feeder options and like to inspect my cases as I feed them as well as my bullets for flaws.
For pistol ammo I do like the Dillon taper crimp dies for all my cartridges since I shoot mostly semi autos chambered for .45acp, 38 Super and 38 Special full wad cutter. I have a S&W 357 new in the box unfired but can set the 38Spl dies to size and load them if I want to shoot it someday.
If you can take a picture of your 450RL I would like to see how you have it set up, mine has the powder measure and primer feeder on it.

 

[tddeangelo]

I'll try to take one when I get a chance. I just finished doing 200 rounds of 45ACP on it, actually, so I'm not going back down there just now, lol.

I got it with an auto primer feed and what Dillon tells me (when I called) is an old style 550 auto (case activated) powder measure. Both work...both have some idiosyncrasies I'm learning. I can do 100 rounds in about 25 minutes while checking for a primer and powder each cycle and not making any effort to go fast.

You bring up a good point, that another 550 for pistol setups and keeping the 450 for rifle/sizing operations wouldn't suck. I don't ever really need to do multiple thousands of rounds at a sitting.

 

[truck driver]

I'll try to take one when I get a chance. I just finished doing 200 rounds of 45ACP on it, actually, so I'm not going back down there just now, lol.

I got it with an auto primer feed and what Dillon tells me (when I called) is an old style 550 auto (case activated) powder measure. Both work...both have some idiosyncrasies I'm learning. I can do 100 rounds in about 25 minutes while checking for a primer and powder each cycle and not making any effort to go fast.

You bring up a good point, that another 550 for pistol setups and keeping the 450 for rifle/sizing operations wouldn't suck. I don't ever really need to do multiple thousands of rounds at a sitting.

Sounds like you have it set up like mine so no need for pics. Not sure what issues your having with it but it probably needs some adjustment tweaking. Some things need to have clearance to work right and you can over tighten things.
If you have problems let me know and maybe I can slip up one day and help you tweak it.
Mine runs flawlessly loading .45acp which I dedicated it for.

 

[tddeangelo]

Yep, I have fully discovered what you just described....things can be too tight. And too loose. The linkage that actuates the charge bar on the older style measure is one great example. Too loose and it hops out of place and doesn't move the charge bar. Too tight and the bar doesn't return as it should when the case is lowered. The clamp to hold the powder measure to the powder die, too, I've discovered, can be too tight, preventing the measure from lowering as well.

The primer system was a little quirky till I took some 600-grit paper to the slide. Now the only thing that's been messing me up with it is the spent primers sometimes drop in the path of the slide and prevent it from fully coming back into proper position. I have to look at the primer catch systems out there and see what I like. There are spent primers all over the dang place because they tend to go where they go when the catch bin opens on the down stroke, so that's something I should decide on and get ordered.

I also put a roller handle on it. I might put the ball handle back on for comparison. I got the roller cheaply and figured I'd give it a go.

 

[Gun nut]

"Sounds like you have it set up like mine so no need for pics. Not sure what issues your having with it but it probably needs some adjustment tweaking. Some things need to have clearance to work right and you can over tighten things.
If you have problems let me know and maybe I can slip up one day and help you tweak it.
Mine runs flawlessly loading .45acp which I dedicated it for."

Congratulations guys. This is what makes this a great site. Willingness to share experiences and assisting others. Very good discussion here. Well done!
Duane

 

[truck driver]

Tom seriously I still would like to look at your setup there might be something out of alignment causing your issues since mine runs flawlessly but yes every now and then I get a spent primer on the floor but usually when I get rough with it. Heck I get more spent primers on the floor with my RCBS press then with the Dillons Oh and I have 3 set up on benches and can roll out various calibers when ever I want to. I don't store loaded ammo since I was always OCD about having fresh made ammo for matches when I competed on a regular basis. Precision pistol ammo can be altitude sensitive and I found out the hard way, just lucky I carried various weight recoil springs.

 

[tddeangelo]

I have to look at that little catch bin under Station 1, Rodger. I was looking at how that operates, and I think it might be sticking open once in a while. But the gist of the thing is that the ram is lowered and the plate comes down, that "door" on the bottom of that primer catch is hinged so that the bottom opens and the primer drops out. There's literally nothing there to catch the primers when that little plate/door opens (I put a box under the press and it gets about 60% of them, depending on how they come out). Since it came to me used, I'm guessing there's something not there that should be. I searched Dillon's site for a primer catch and didn't find anything.

I did find some aftermarket stuff on other sites that looked pretty good. One ran some clear tubing to the floor and fit onto an empty 2L soda bottle, letting the spent primers just slide into the bottle and fill it up over time. There was no way for a primer to get out in the wild, so to speak, either. I like that one. I had figured I'd start using the spent primers for "sand" bags for the rifles. Not that sand is expensive, but if I can do something with the primers other than throwing them out, I would do so. I know some recycle them , and there's a recycling facility near me. It seems, though, that one would need a LOT of primers to make any sort of trip, even a short one, worthwhile.

And it hope it doesn't come across like the thing is full of gremlins. It's working really well. I just need to make sure I have things the way they need to be. The powder measure is one area that I can get a little heavy-handed with the allen wrenches, but I think I have a good handle now (about 300-400 rounds done on the press) of what it needs to be setup like to run properly.

I do see buying another measure at some point to run one set up for a large charge bar and one for a small. I believe it's got a large in it now, although I'm not positive. My 10mm load is 7.3gr Longshot, and it's better then 3/4 closed to get that. Handily enough, my 45ACP load of 4.0gr Red Dot is about half a revolution on the adjustment screw from the 10mm load to get the right charge weight.

I'll also need to get the small primer setup, too, so I can load 9mm, 30 Carbine, and 223.

 

[Nimrod84]

tddeangelo,

I can't confirm this would work for your 450 but I'm about 93% confident it will. The Dillon primer catcher for the 550 is #13650 "Primer Catcher Cup" available at https://www.dillonprecision.com/rl550-s ... 25369.html. It sits on a triangle on the right press linkage arm...

If you still have issues with the primers jumping about, their are a few other tweaks one can make - https://www.dillonprecision.com/spent-p ... 0_1385.htm

Good luck, afraid I can't help with the powder dispenser / primer stuff. Although, it might be worth asking Truck Driver about the fail safe dispenser upgrade - https://www.dillonprecision.com/powder- ... 25712.html.

 

[tddeangelo]

Thanks for that link. I never saw that the linkage could be added.

I think that’s a wise $27 to spend.

 

[Nimrod84]

You are very welcome, but please make sure I'm not misrepresenting anything before ordering. I can't imagine that the 550 parts wouldn't work on the 450. I just don't know if the 450 had any unique parts or accessories like a dedicated powder dispenser. My main concern is if there is a difference from the side of the machine to the dies and if there is a difference would that cause a problem.

The gentleman who got me into reloading was a big Dillon fan and mentioned many a time that his dispensers needed new springs. Truck Driver or others would be of more help than my foggy memories of learning about the blue machines.

I assume you have the 450 manual; but just in case - it is available online at https://www.dillonprecision.com/docs/ma ... Manual.pdf. Has a parts diagram and #32 is the spent primer catcher cup... Just thought I would throw that out there...

Good luck and enjoy your blue machine!

 

[tddeangelo]

As far as I can tell, the only difference is the lack of a removable toolhead on the 450 frame.

Mine came with automatic primer and powder systems installed (550 systems).

I YouTubed some ideas on making the spent primer chute work better. Loads of ideas out there.

 

[truck driver]

Tom here's pictures of my powder measure and spent primer catch cup.
If you put a 550 roller handle on your machine then you will need a spent primer cup for the 550 to fit on the handle.
Here's some picks of my 450 powder dispenser and spent primer cup.

 

[tddeangelo]

I would think that same primer catch cup would work with either handle, though, wouldn't it? Not sure that the roller handle would change that?

I have the same primer system as you, but my measure is an older one. It has no linkage to the platform/ram. I called Dillon thinking parts were missing and they confirmed this is an old style measure.

I watched a few videos of guys doing an upgrade from an older (but newer than mine) 550 measure that had a different failsafe linkage, and for the entire process, it looks like it'd work just fine on my measure to upgrade it to that linkage/bell arm. If I decide to do it, I'll call Dillon first to be certain.

Just out of curiosity, I just ran 100 rounds of 45's on my press, because it was all still setup for that. I confirmed the measure was throwing where I wanted first, checked the primer catch bin for function, filled a pick-up tube, and went to work.

I had the catch bin stick open twice out of 100 rounds. I found some ideas online to improve that, but it's not awful. No malfunctions with the powder measure or primer pickup. Took me about 15 minutes to do 100.