Same Caliber, different rifles, same bullet

[Europe]

We had a really good conversation yesterday with 6 men from different parts of Europe who love to hunt, some reload, some dont and a couple of interesting subjects arose from that conversation. Only hunters, no competition shooters. And everyone in the conversation was over 60.

1. Do you shoot enough to really save any money reloading or do you feel the accuracy gained in reloading is worth the trouble or do you simply enjoy reloading

2. Weathery and Norma was their picks for the best factory ammo--yours ?

3. Many of them use the same store bought ammo and reloads in the same caliber rifle but different rifle--do you or do you load for each rifle to obtain maximum accuracy ( same load for two different 30-06 rifles)

4. what accuracy are you happy with at 200 yards ? Most hunters in Europe and Africa dont hunt at the distance you fellows hunt at

 

[SJB358]

I handload to be able to shoot my rifles somewhat economically. There is no way I could shoot as much paying 40-80 bucks a box to shoot most of my rifles.

I do enjoy tweaking my rifles to shoot MOA or better in order to shoot the bullets I wanna shoot. It is tough to find ammo with the bullet I want to use AND have it shoot the way I want it to. I am not a nut on accuracy, usually once I have a consistently MOA load I quit messing around with tweaking then start shooting it from hunting positions.

If I did shoot factory ammo, it would probably be Norma, Weatherby, Nosler, Winchester Supreme and maybe some Hornady stuff.. Again, it is too rich for my blood to shoot the quantity I'd really be able to practice with.

Also, I load different ammo for different rifles. Lucky for me, the only repeats I have in the safe is the 35 Whelen and 300 Weatherby..

 

[Anonymous]

This will be an interesting conversation...

1. I don't reload much anymore. I hunt far more than I shoot and will never save enough loading to make it worth the time I'd spend doing it. I find it enjoyable, but not as much as other stuff.

2. I like Nosler's factory offerings and I've been happy with Federal.

3. I'll shoot the same in load in two different rifles. I find that most factory ammo can outshoot me pretty handily. There are some loads that just disagree with a specific rifle, I generally dump it in favor of something that shoots acceptably in all my rifles in that chambering. Currently- both my 270s like 130gr Trophy Bonded and 130gr Hot Cors in Federal factory...good enough.

4. If I can shoot 4" from a field position at 200yds- good enough for me. 6" at 300 from a field position is just fine. That's just a long poke for me. The critters I've shot farther than that were pretty unusual and most were from prone over a pack and rivaled a benchrest for steadiness. I shot a couple looped up sitting with my left elbow firmly planted on something and got pretty steady. I'm a strong advocate that hunting folks should shoot from hunting positions (fully realizing that some folks shoot from stands with shooting rails- if that's your thing, then shoot that way).

I shoot very little from a bench- but 200yd groups of 2" give me good confidence in a hunting rifle. I like consistency a bit more than pure accuracy in a hunting rifle. A rifle that shoots 3" with several loads under all conditions is better than a rifle that shoots 0.5" with a single load but only under a quarter moon on a third Thursday of a month containing an 'R' in the name.

I detest a finicky rifle now matter how much accuracy I can milk out of it on a range.

 

[5shot]

I use the excuse that reloading saves me money, but I do it because I enjoy it. I do save a ton of money on 223 Rem and 45 ACP though.

 

[Thankful Otter]

my thoughts mirror's Hodgemans on every point

We do have a concern that our grandfather is getting older and doesn't handle the cold as well as he once did, and we are concerned about the isolation when he is at the cabin as we notice him slowing down. Therefore since he has done all our reloading we have been researching where to buy loaded ammo, as we prefer to be outside hunting, fishing, canoe building etc to reloading, so we will not be taking on that task when he retires in the warm part of the world.

As mentioned I am in lock step with hodgeman--I will shoot the same loads in two different same caliber rifles which at the moment is only the 348, 2" at 200 yards works for me, we are so busy- reloading would take away from something we now enjoying doing, and we dont shoot enough to warrant it as we dont spend hours shooting, we shoot, we eat and then wait until we need more meat to shoot again.

This is good opportunity for me to ask the membership where can I buy 348 loaded ammo. We looked at Buffalo Bore but they are out. We liked what they were selling, the 250 gr Alaska Bullet works, bullet and Scotty speaks well of Buffalo Bore. If we have to maybe we can trade a Musk Oxen bow hunt to Gill for his time to load up some 348's for us.

 

[Blkram]

1) While I have spent more time over the past 10 years in archery than in shooting my rifles, I find that when I am shooting regularly, I do save money by handloading. I was putting an average of 500-700 rounds a year through my 6.5x55, plus shooting my other rifles, which really helped with my shooting performance. While this was mostly from the bench at the range, I did practice regularly out to 400 yards. I was also harvesting a lot more game each year then, filling family members's freezers, and the practice certainly paid off. Like 5shot, I reload because I also enjoy it!

2) I have been impressed with the Norma and Weatherby ammo that I have used over the years, but due to its higher cost and less availability, I found that I used more of the Federal Premium factory load than any other. This was due availability, variety of premium bullets loaded in this ammo line, decent pricing, and most importantly, performance in accuracy on the range and performance on game. The Nosler ammunition tried to date has also produced excellent performance, but I have much less experience with it so far.

3) I try to use the best performing ammunition in all of my rifles, whether it be factory or hand loads. Once I have a load for a rifle, I stick to it. For rifles of duplicate clambering so, I have yet to find the best load for each, as they are mostly newly acquired. I will try to keep loads different for the different rifles. For example, I have used Winchester factory 100 gr PowerPoint ammo in my 250AI, while having Susan use Remington 100 gr PSP in her Ruger No. 1 in 250 Savage. I have found some HSM 100 gr and Hornady 100 gr SP ammunition to try in my Ruger 77 RSI 250 Savage. This way we will be able to keep the ammunition for each rifle separate to avoid confusion.

4) As a hunter first, I generally use accuracy for my own level of satisfaction as 1" or less for 3 shot groups at 100 yards. I have several rifles that will do this at 200 yards, which just adds to confidence. All my rifles are generally sighted in for zero at 200 yards. The exceptions are the 22's obviously, and the 375 Win (100 yards) and the 41 Rem Mag will be zeroed at 50 yards.

My most accurate rifle at distance tested so far is my 7MM STW which will produce 1" 3 shot groups at 300 yards with a Federal Premium factory ammunition loaded with 160 gr AccuBonds. Their same ammunition with the 160 gr SGK will produce 3" 3 shot groups at 400 yards. Hard to beat this performance so Inhaven't really tried, and I have a good supply of these now discontinued ammunitions.

While I do not hold lever actions to the same level of accuracy expectation as I do bolt actions, I have been very fortunate to date that most will meet the 1" level!

Using this method, the majority of my rifles are between 1-2" high at 100 yards and are between 5-9" low at 300 yards, dependant upon cartridge (270 Wby flattest load and 416 Taylor heaviest load). Therefore every shot on big game out to this distance is always held on hair.

For rifles that may get ranges stretched, I use the Leupold's with the B&C reticle and verify point of impact with longer yardage hash marks. Or the Swarovski Z3 4-12x50 that has the BRH reticle. But as previously stated, I have taken very few game at distances past 300 yards, and even less beyond 400 yards.

 

[35 Whelen]

I reload because it does save me a bit of money and I like to do it.
Because I shot a 30/06 most of my life, and because it is so under loaded in this country I could easily get it up to basically 300 H&H velocitys, and get a much flatter trajectory it was a must for me with an 06 Ditto with the 6.5x55. Ditto with the 35 Whelen, reloading it with RL15 we are only 100fps behind the .338WM with our handloads bullet weight for bullet weight.
Alot of rifles I have owned would shoot approximately half of the group size when handloaded( thought that not be as true today with ALL the excellent ammo thats available)
Plus a brass tumbled reload with a long sexy bullet is almost as purddy as a little speckled puppy tied to a red wagon!!!

 

[super-7]

1- I just enjoy reloading and tinkering with loads.
I don't think it has saved me any money because I just find myself buying more equipment and then more guns. Lol.
Example - I found a set of 300 win RCBS dies for sale at 50% of retail . So I bought them ... well what good is a set of dies without out s rifle?? So those 25$ dies wound up costing me a 1200$ rifle and a 1500$ scope!! What a deal..

2- if I buy factory ammo it's mostly because I want the brass. Been buying mostly Rem and lately Hornady .
Example 50 new 270 win brass from Hornady is now 80$ here.
I bought 3 boxes of American Whitetail loaded with a 140 gr interlock at 28$/box of 20. So I got 60 brass for 90$ plus I was able to sight in the rifle and plink away . Damn Canadian dollar really sucks.

3- I have found pet loads that shoot relatively good in several different rifles. But mostly I tweak and play with loads so each one is for a particular rifle.

4- I want as close to MOA in all my hunting rifles. If I can get beginners to hold 2" at 100 and up to 5" at 200. I will take them hunting. But I want that same rifle shooting an inch when I shoot it.
I am very comfortable with most of my rifles out 400 yards. 500 is my limit at the moment with only 2 of my rifles.. practicing out further with one built for Longrange hunting.

All my rifles a zeroed at 200 yrds.


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[Africa Huntress]

Gil, that is a very nicely written and informative post thank you

Hodgeman, I also am happy with 2inches at 200 yards from a field position and to be honest I very seldom ever shoot 200 yards

We do both. We have a gentleman that reloads for us but we also buy loaded ammo and as Hodgeman said it ( purchased loaded ammo ) shoots as good as I do.

As for using the same load in two different rifles that are the same caliber, we definitely do so in all calibers that start with four. We are hunters, not shooters, so to speak. Speaking only for myself and no one else in my family, I would have zero problem in purchasing a box of loaded ammo from Norma and using it for an important hunt.

Best Regards

Jamila

 

[c. schutte]

I'm new to hand loading. My dad reloaded but back then I was too busy being a kid. Once the bug bit me he was long gone so I had to reach out to others. Thankfully there are some very good folks willing to lend a hand.
To answer your questions................

I load for several reasons....... One is for the sake of learning how to do it & to be able to use the bullet I want for hunting. It is something I felt I needed to know and am very glad that it happened. For me, accurcy is important. Not because bench accuracy is the be-all end-all but because it is fun. Not much money is saved, that is not the point for me.

Weatherby ammo is very good stuff. I've also liked Federal a lot. Over so many years I've many factory offerings.

Only one load for rifle and each rifle for a purpose. That is going to change some day I suppose. For me I like a bullet that is fairly specific for a purpose. Or perhaps better said, deer rifles get deer bullets and elk rifles get elk bullets. It's interesting that so many good bullets cover that range nicely as well as between 50 and 500 yards too. It's a great time to be loading!

Accuracy is important to me..........to a point though. I'm a hunter, not a bench shooter so one could get caught up in trying to get bench accuracy out of a hunting rifle. Especially in the field. 1" at 100 yards is hunting accurate but, it won't make me happy. 1/2" is more like it. Yes, that does not make sense considering it is a hunting rifle and will be used in the field....................... I know that, I'm working on it but, it is what it is.

Accuracy at 200 yards. Gee, I like 1" or better.............. I'm satisfied with 1.5". I get that won't necessarily mean squat in the field but it is nice to know what the rifle and load can do.

My goal is to be able to be accurate enough in the field to make a 500 yard shot on game if conditions warrant. My other goal is to be able to get well under that distance before making the shot! :>)

 

[Elkman]

This is a great subject. I am also over 60.
1. I have been reloading since the late 50's and have shot several thousand's of rounds that I would have never fired, buying factory ammunition. If I was not a hunter I would probably not shoot as much and my shooting skills would not be what they are. I enjoy reloading to a point, but its value to me is primarily allowing me to hunt, I am a hunter not a shooter.
2. I have not bought some pinking ammo for 22 and 223 but other than that, I haven't bought a box of ammo in 40+ years.
3. Each rifle has its own load. Even when I had more, that was always the case.
4. Reloading allows me to get the accuracy I want out of my rifles, most of which will consistently shoot MOA. I consider point blank range as out to 300 yards.

Great reading, cool post.

 

[Polaris]

1. I do shoot enough to save money by reloading, but that mostly applies to competition and practice target shooting. By carefully selecting value components that act similarly to my hunting loads, I can practice a lot for a fraction of the cost of premium bullet hunting loads. Accuracy-wise, in my situation I would be happy with factory level accuracy to 200 yards, but get a deep personal satisfaction from taking game with my own handloads. For competition shooting, it is essential.

2. I do not have a lot of experience with factory ammo since the early '90s, recently, mostly with PRVI ammo in metric caliber military rifles. I found it quite accurate and reliable, no experience with performance on game. In my Swiss rifles, accuracy of their 174gr SP load is comparable to the venerable GP11 Swiss military ammunition. The 7.62 Nato PRVI military spec ammo we bought for my wife to practice with is also quite good, as good or better than any military surplus 7.62 I've ever used.

3. If I had duplicate caliber hunting rifles, I would load for each one to maximize performance. They would likely be used for different situations, so would likely utilize a different bullet anyhow. If I had 2 in the same niche and caliber, I would likely find a single load that shot well in both if possible.

4. I am quite content with REPEATABLE 3moa at 200 yards in a hunting load in real-world conditions in rifles intended for longer range use. 4 would be my minimum. The 2 I use in this role fall closer to 2moa if the wind behaves. This is not an extrapolated 200 yard group from 100 yard shooting, but actual live fire. I use 5 shot groups.

 

[DrMike]

I've been hand loading for a few years--not as long as others, but the time has flown since I first began.

I've never saved money hand loading; but I was able to spend a lot more time at the range than I would have otherwise. I enjoy seeing the finished product and harvesting game with loads that I constructed on my own. Also, by hand loading, I've been able to test and use quality components I would not have otherwise been able to use. I have enjoyed the mathematics required to do the calculations.

I have never shot Nosler ammunition, but I have always found Norma ammunition to be worthy of serious consideration when asked what I might recommend. I have shot a fair amount of Federal ammunition from the bench (mostly with rifles belonging to other people when doing break-in). I am impressed that it is usually consistent, and consistency equates to accuracy.

Generally, each rifle has its own load. There have been a couple of exceptions over the years, but generally each rifle has its own ammunition.

I am often content with MOA accuracy for hunting loads, though most of my rifles will give me sub-MOA groups with selected ammunition. I more concerned with terminal ballistics and bullet performance when selecting a load for the field.

 

[Guy Miner]

1. Do you shoot enough to really save any money reloading or do you feel the accuracy gained in reloading is worth the trouble or do you simply enjoy reloading

Particularly on my handgun shooting, I save money, or perhaps I just shoot more? For example, local retail on a box of 50 .45 ACP cartridges is about $25, and I'm handloading 50 rounds for less than $10 total. So I can shoot a lot more, which I do! On the rifle stuff, I still save money, particularly with something like the .375 H&H and premium bullets...

At times I've loaded over 1,000 rounds of .308 a year, along with other rifle cartridges, and several thousand rounds of .45 ACP. Volume loading, coupled with buying in bulk, is one heck of a cost saver.

Do I gain accuracy? Interesting subject. With my .308 Win match rifle years ago I was so impressed with factory Federal Gold Medal match ammo, 2.5" groups at 600 yards! And I had to really improve my handloading to consistently beat that. Yes, I gain accuracy, but good factory ammo can be very, very accurate!

And yes, I enjoy handloading. Always have, Grandpa and Dad taught me when I was a wee child, 55 years ago.

2. Weathery and Norma was their picks for the best factory ammo--yours ?

Federal

3. Many of them use the same store bought ammo and reloads in the same caliber rifle but different rifle--do you or do you load for each rifle to obtain maximum accuracy ( same load for two different 30-06 rifles)

Yes, I load for a particular rifle. I don't have too many duplicates. Interestingly the .30-06 ammo I loaded for my 1917 rifle also produces good results in my much newer Rem 700. But I went ahead and developed a new load, just for the new Rem 700 too.

4. what accuracy are you happy with at 200 yards ? Most hunters in Europe and Africa dont hunt at the distance you fellows hunt at

For varmints, like sage rats, which can be tiny, I want an inch at 200 yards. For big game, I'm quite happy with one MOA, or 2" groups at 200 yards. I do have some rifles that do considerably better than that, that I rely on for longish range opportunities. My .25-06 being one, and the .300 WSM being another. They're both capable of approaching 1/2 MOA with select loads. But... Sometimes I choose a load for other reasons than accuracy. I'm willing to sacrifice some accuracy for on-game performance. I have a couple of rifles I'm quite content with, that only produce mediocre accuracy, but they're intended for modest range shooting, so that's fine.

Regards, Guy

 

[AFG270]

I do save money reloading as I shoot several handguns and rifles. I started reloading for my 30-06 in the early 70's and one of my first reloaded groups at 100 yards, I could cover with a dime. After that I was hooked on reloading for all my guns.

I don't shoot factory ammo unless I can't find brass for a certain cartridge.

At 200 yards I like to have a 4-5 inch group for my hunting rifle.

Great thread Europe!

 

[Europe]

Great responses, very detailed, informative and I believe helpful to the younger enthusiasts of our sport.

Those of you who are set up to reload several different calibers of rifles and revolvers, plus shotguns, what do you think you have invested in reloading equipment ?

What is your estimate on when that cost was paid for ( by having lowered your ammo purchasing cost ) and you actually started saving money on your reloading products ?

Our son still has his father's equipment or most of it ( he does replace and purchase new stuff ) so it was paid for years ago via ammo savings

Dr Mike, do you remember what calibers you had no problem using the same load in two different same caliber rifles ?

I have to be honest and tell you that I can not disagree with Hodgeman and others, as we have lost ammo in transit, purchased what was available to us, and I do not remember ever having a bad experience with store bought ammo for a hunt. I remember a thread here about a fellow that I think was hunting moose with his fathers old rifle and store bought ammo which had a happy ending

Cheyenne, off the top of my head I dont know who has 250 gr 348 in stock. I bet Buffalo Bore will have some and when he does, buy to all, as the bullets he uses from Alaska Bullet works, are good ones. The fellow that owns Alaska Bullet Works is pretty independent, so he may just be a bit behind in filling orders. Dr Mike, Scotty--any thoughts on who might carry these in stock ?

Earle, the puppy is too cute, is he yours ?

How many of you have your own range or do you have to pay for range time and can only go at certain times? My husband made our range but we had a tractor and land and by getting a few railroad ties had a comfortable range, but obviously not as fancy as the indoor ranges.

 

[DrMike]

All of my .356 rifles digest the same ammunition without much problem. I still make individual loads for each, but they will each shoot the 250 grain Kodiak without a problem. Though it has a different POI, each shoots the 220 grain Speer FN equally well. The same is true with my .358 rifles. Though one is a Hawkeye and the other is a BLR, the 200 grain TSX load shoots equally well in either rifle. I've had two 35 Whelens (one a Remington Classic and the other a Hawkeye); each shot the 225 grain TSX load equally well. Maybe medium bore rifles are less fussy than some others.

 

[Blkram]

I have acquired my reloading equipment over many years and would probably be in the neighbourhood of $2-$3,000. If I added in my reloading components (primers, brass, powder and bullets) it would likely approach the $10,000 mark, but these are just estimates.

As for when that cost is repaid, this can be a different matter and will depend on how each person views their own "repayment" criteria. I look at it from a couple of different perspectives that may or may not be quantifiable.
First, once I find a load for a firearm that provides the accuracy that I am expecting from that particular rifle, with my bullet of choice for the ibtended game, I feel that the investment has been worthwhile, and as I will then have a minimum of 100 rounds on hand, I am set for a period of time for practice and hunting.
Second, once I have used that ammunition in that rifle to harvest game for the freezer, it has now completely paid for itself, in my mind, for the investment in the entire package. It has now fulfilled its purpose in putting meat on table for me and/or my family. It has paid for itself completely in my mind. And I will get the added value of years of adventures with it to come, as a bonus!
I do not try to qualify it by equating the dollar value per pound of meat in the freezer to the cost of the rifle package, the reloading components and equipment, the pick-up truck, fuel and food for the hunt, or you will be hard pressed to prove that it has paid for itself. And this does not account for your time!
But I also place a lot of value in the enjoyment that I get from the planning, the purchases, the time developing the hand loads, the time at the range and the time in the field using this equipment that I have put together for the specific purpose, the spending of time with family and friends, and bringing home the game to provide for the family. This, to me is priceless! And to me, it is worth the investment.

I sent a PM to Cheyenne yesterday on ammo availability here in Canada for her 348.

I do not have a home range, and use local sports club ranges to shoot at. Having pistols, classed as restricted weapons here in Canada, we are required to maintain gun club memberships, because by law, the only place where we can use them is at a government approved gun range. No back 40 use allowed.

 

[Europe]

Excellent response and "point" Gil. Your costs" were very well explained for those who are just starting out to digest. Thank you

Dr Mike, thank you, and you may be correct about mid caliber's as well as large bores, if I understood Jamila's post correctly.

Some of you fellows, like Dr Mike, Guy, Gil and several others, are very good at explaining a situation in manner that someone new to our sport will understand and that is a good thing. I have never had that knack, if anything I have been a bit to blunt or outspoken in my lifetime, but admire those of you who have the ability to explain thing's in a manner even a novice to the sport will understand.

 

[DrMike]

As to cost of equipment/components, I have no accurate tally. However, I would not be wrong in estimating that the value is well north of $40,000 CDN.