Some Rifles Aren't so Easy

[CatskillCrawler]

I have a BDL in 30-06 which I picked with the intention of making it a donor for a 35 Whelen. Things happened and we needed another rifle that same year so I loaded up some 165gr PTs over IMR-4350 and it shot great. Didn't have the time to invest to look for a better load and honestly didn't need too. I loaded up 20 rds and promised myself that when these 20 rounds were gone I would convert it to a .358 bore. Well, a few years have passed and this rifle has slain a good number of WTs and two Blackies for us in the hands of my relatives. I was down to the last three bullets and yet again found myself in a situation where my project wouldn't happen so soon. Thank you Congress for your sequestration and ensuing furlough! :x

I couldn't find any 165gr PTs but got my hands on some 168gr BTs and started up some loads for these bullets.


IMR-4350 was ok but not impressive. I have no idea where the third shot from the lower right group went. I believe it to be a two hole, three shot group but my backer board had numerous holes right off the target and I couldn't be certain. Velocity was meh so I moved on. You can see the group of the last three PTs I had loaded up 5 years ago for this rifle at 4:00 near center. Still holding tight!

RL-22 gave me nothing to cheer about as well. Better speed and usable accuracy but...meh

IMR-4064 also provided nothing to rave about.

SuPerformance was a bit scary. Velocities were all over the map and I never did fire the highest charge weight as I didn't care for the inconsistencies and spikes in speed.

I have a mess of IMR-4064 which I don't use for anything but my Garand so I tried it again hoping to find some improvement.

I think I can tighten this up with some OAL work but for as late as it is now, it will have to do for this year.

 

[FOTIS]

The 60 gr RL22 is not that bad.

 

[CatskillCrawler]

The 60 gr RL22 is not that bad.

I thought about playing with that one but it was no better than the IMR-4064 and I have a little over 1lb of RL-22 and two rifles that shoot it well. I have over 4 lbs of IMR-4064 and rarely use it. The lower left load(52.0gr) of IMR-4064 in the last target shot the best out of all of them and its velocity matches the RL-22 load. If it will hold at just under an inch like that I'll be satisfied with it for another year.

 

[FOTIS]

Good deal. Makes sense

 

[nosler06]

I would have to say that I think that rifle likes the IMR4064. I have never tried IMR4064 in my 30-06 because I have had such great success with IMR4350 and just this year switched to H4350. I do however run 180gr NP's through mine with 5 shot sub .75" groups. IMO I would try to tweek the IMR4064 OAL and see where that gets you. I look forward to seeing the tweeking photos. Good Luck.

 

[DrMike]

I'd say IMR4064 works reasonably well in that load. At least, it shows promise. I'd be inclined to work with altering the OAL.

 

[truck driver]

I would take a page out of the book of Fotis :roll:. Buy the family a Ruger American and build my Whelen :mrgreen:

 

[SJB358]

I would think that 4064 and the 168 would work fine. Speeds seem sorta slow for the amount of powder used, seems that rifle may have a bit larger chamber and require a little more PSI to see it start to tighten up with the slower powders. Either way, a 168 at 2750/2800 is a super load. Probably so good most of the time it'll be boring.

 

[CatskillCrawler]

I'd say IMR4064 works reasonably well in that load. At least, it shows promise. I'd be inclined to work with altering the OAL.

I would agree. I don't have the time to do that now unfortunately. This will have to suffice if it shoots ~1" again.

I would take a page out of the book of Fotis . Buy the family a Ruger American and build my Whelen

It does pain me to hand this rifle over every year as it is a looker and I will rue the day when it is returned all banged up. :?

I would think that 4064 and the 168 would work fine. Speeds seem sorta slow for the amount of powder used, seems that rifle may have a bit larger chamber and require a little more PSI to see it start to tighten up with the slower powders. Either way, a 168 at 2750/2800 is a super load. Probably so good most of the time it'll be boring.

I agree. This is the rifle whose water capacity I provided to you and you ran some QL estimates a few weeks ago. I have no concerns about the effectiveness of this load. Admittedly, the excitement factor is rated as languish... The 165gr PTs I had loaded were never chrony'd until I shot those last three shots that are in my top target. Shot very consistent but with 58.5gr of IMR-4350 they were moping along at 2733fps. Ho-hum. Killed stuff dead every time.

I still have plans on this becoming my next .358 bore. Just another delay. I think I will take it to Maine next week just because I haven't bloodied anything personally with it. Burying a 168 BT into a mature Maine bruiser would be special. :grin:

 

[Partisan]

What seating depth for 168 versus rifling?
Are the rifle's action screws torqued to spec?

 

[Polaris]

In 30-06 with 165 gr bullets, H414 is usually worth a try.

 

[CatskillCrawler]

What seating depth for 168 versus rifling?
Are the rifle's action screws torqued to spec?

I do have all the seating data for that bullet at home. I basically went to SAAMI OAL for starters. It currently has considerable jump but I don't have specifics on me. The action screws are torqued correctly and the Rem pressure point in the forearm still exists.

In 30-06 with 165 gr bullets, H414 is usually worth a try.

I haven't seen H414 in these parts in quite some time. I'm using powder I have on my shelves for now.

 

[truck driver]

I think I would relieve that pressure point to float the barrel. A dowel rod and some 100 grit sand paper will take care of that problem. Then sealer up good with some True oil stock finish.

 

[Guest]

I keep looking at the targets and I've finally decided I'm with Scotty on this one - you've got a big chamber or a loose bore or something, because 2778fps for 58gr of IMR4350 is about 100fps slow. I do like that 58gr group, and might be inclined to work up to a smidge with one of the 4350s. If you have any H4350, I'd strongly consider working up to 59gr of H4350 and compare your velocities and groups with the IMR variant. That 58gr load shows serious promise if you shorten the COL a bit to bring in that last flyer. Even if that's all you could get (tighter group and same velocities) it's going to do everything the old Partition load did, and bore the heck out of you while filling the freezer.

 

[CatskillCrawler]

Here's the QL data that Scotty worked up for me using the H2O capacity of this rifle's fired brass. I've added actual velocity for the specific charge in red next to the QL estimates.

Here is the same data ran with your H20 capacity. It looks like the numbers are much closer to what you are seeing. If I inputted the seating depths your using and then remember this doesn't seem to be an exact science, it'll get pretty close. It still looks like QL is showing about 70-75FPS more than what your seeing, so it could be chronograph difference, or just the burn rates calculated vs your actual powders burn rate.

Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 168, Nosler CT BalSilTip 51160
Useable Case Capaci: 61.000 grain H2O = 3.961 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : IMR 4064

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 80 42.32 2318 2005 34550 8043 94.7 1.387
-18.0 82 43.38 2371 2097 36733 8257 95.6 1.353
-16.0 84 44.44 2423 2190 39044 8463 96.4 1.315
-14.0 86 45.49 2475 2285 41489 8659 97.1 1.277
-12.0 88 46.55 2527 2381 44077 8844 97.8 1.241
-10.0 90 47.61 2578 2479 46816 9019 98.3 1.207
-08.0 92 48.67 2629 2578 49716 9181 98.8 1.174
-06.0 94 49.73 2680 2679 52787 9332 99.2 1.142
-04.0 96 50.78 2730 2780 56041 9470 99.5 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 98 51.84 2780 2883 59490 9594 99.8 1.082 ! Near Maximum ! 52.0gr = 2758fps Delta = ~32fps
+00.0 100 52.90 2830 2987 63147 9704 99.9 1.053 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 102 53.96 2879 3091 67029 9799 100.0 1.026 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 104 55.02 2927 3197 71150 9882 100.0 1.000 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 106 56.07 2976 3303 75530 9961 100.0 0.974 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 108 57.13 3023 3410 80188 10037 100.0 0.950 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 110 58.19 3071 3518 85148 10111 100.0 0.926 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 100 52.90 2922 3186 73583 9356 100.0 0.988 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 100 52.90 2694 2707 52777 9769 97.0 1.140


Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 168, Nosler CT BalSilTip 51160
Useable Case Capaci: 61.000 grain H2O = 3.961 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : IMR 4350

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 85 47.36 2284 1946 32710 8142 87.6 1.409
-18.0 87 48.54 2340 2043 34929 8407 88.9 1.371
-16.0 89 49.73 2397 2143 37297 8666 90.1 1.333
-14.0 91 50.91 2453 2245 39826 8919 91.3 1.293
-12.0 93 52.10 2510 2351 42533 9162 92.4 1.253
-10.0 95 53.28 2567 2458 45429 9397 93.4 1.216
-08.0 97 54.46 2624 2569 48529 9622 94.4 1.180
-06.0 99 55.65 2681 2681 51829 9836 95.3 1.145
-04.0 102 56.83 2738 2797 55345 10038 96.1 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 104 58.02 2795 2914 59112 10227 96.8 1.079 ! Near Maximum !58.0 gr=2708fps Delta=~85fps
+00.0 106 59.20 2852 3035 63154 10403 97.5 1.047 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 108 60.38 2909 3157 67494 10564 98.1 1.017 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 110 61.57 2966 3282 72161 10709 98.6 0.988 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 112 62.75 3023 3408 77185 10837 99.1 0.960 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 114 63.94 3079 3537 82604 10949 99.4 0.932 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 116 65.12 3136 3669 88456 11042 99.7 0.906 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 106 59.20 2980 3312 74651 10288 99.9 0.976 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 106 59.20 2683 2686 51955 10039 91.4 1.140


Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 168, Nosler CT BalSilTip 51160
Useable Case Capaci: 61.000 grain H2O = 3.961 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 91 52.00 2275 1930 29708 8881 82.7 1.450
-18.0 94 53.30 2339 2041 31890 9226 84.4 1.408
-16.0 96 54.60 2404 2156 34251 9566 86.1 1.368
-14.0 98 55.90 2470 2276 36805 9896 87.7 1.329
-12.0 101 57.20 2537 2400 39572 10217 89.2 1.284
-10.0 103 58.50 2604 2529 42576 10525 90.6 1.240
-08.0 105 59.80 2671 2662 45840 10819 92.0 1.198
-06.0 107 61.10 2739 2799 49392 11098 93.3 1.157
-04.0 110 62.40 2808 2941 53267 11359 94.4 1.117 62.0gr = 2756fps Delta = ~45fps
-02.0 112 63.70 2877 3088 57502 11601 95.5 1.079 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 114 65.00 2947 3239 62139 11821 96.5 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 117 66.30 3016 3394 67229 12018 97.3 1.006 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 119 67.60 3086 3553 72830 12190 98.1 0.971 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 121 68.90 3157 3717 79015 12334 98.7 0.937 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 123 70.20 3227 3885 85864 12449 99.2 0.905 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 126 71.50 3298 4058 93473 12533 99.6 0.873 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 114 65.00 3116 3623 76683 11753 99.9 0.956 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 114 65.00 2723 2767 49803 11171 88.3 1.151


Your case capacity it about 1.5 grains higher than standard for 30-06 in QL. Not a huge difference, but it does make a difference.

I need to use a longer drop tube to get any more RL-22 into a case. I can squeeze more IMR-4350 and IMR-4064 and see if hopping it up a bit will tighten things up but I just don't see me getting significantly more speed out of this tube. It is what it is. It may pull these groups in a bit. After the fall seasons I'll play with OAL but I think this session has convinced me that my original plan with this rifle is the best option.

 

[hunting1]

I had a heck of a time with my Ti 30-06 almost to the point of selling it then I tried Varget and 165 Nosler's and BAM! Try around 49-grains and see if it helps. I also had decent luck with RL22 and 165-grainers. Now if I can only get one of my 300WM's figured out......