264 win mag for elk?

[CanuckBen]

I think perhaps Dr Mike could answer this question but I know there are some others with both Moose and Elk experience so please chime in. I have never killed a moose, my perception after watching others do so on tv, (a great place for information to form opinions) is that they are fairly easy to kill. Easier perhaps than elk, certainly one seems to be able to get closer to them. Is this false? I know a bad hit is a bad hit but it just seems moose just kind of lay down after a few seconds. While they are decideing to lay down an elk will cover 100 yards or more. Educate me please!!!

Elkman

As CatskillCrawler mentioned, a Moose’s eyesight is its worst enemy. They aren’t blind, but you can get within 20yards of one by imitating the movement of a challenging, younger bull, tryin’ to pick a fight with a more mature bull.

Their hearing, but perhaps more importantly their sense of smell if what will make or brake your moose hunt.

During the prime time of the rut (~ the last week of September around the 24th to the early week of October are 7th or so) and they will be responsive to the calls. The how’s, do’s & don’t is a whole other discussion, but the point is that they can be brought in quite close yes. What’s close? Well most of our moose hunt here is done in the archery season. I’m an xbow hunter (Excalibur Equinox – only the best!) as well and it allows me to hunt moose in the prime time of the rut as no firearms are allowed at that particular time for two weeks so it doesn’t get much better than that. The effective range is 10 to 50 yards (which is pushing it). During the firearm season you can also try to get them to come in, but the rut having passed, that will be a much bigger challenge as the bulls will be responsive to your call during the rut to either a) mate with a receptive cow or b) challenge another bull that is on its territory. Take those two main reasons out and you’re left with curiosity on their part. Not saying it won’t ever work, but it’s a whole different challenge and technique.

I can tell you that when you spike one with an arrow and a broadhead tip going 320 feet per second, those big bulls weighing in at over 1500lbs+ will NOT stand still after! They always take off running and will always seem to find a way to get into the worst possible spot. One thing is for SURE - the 1st time that one will take off on you from 20-30 yards away into the bush, it will scare the life right out of you if he goes your way even once step! You'll be supprise how quickly they manage to do so too.

With all of that being said I should also say that most of our moose hunts are done in really thick brush and cover, full of swamps and in the hills here in the southern part of Quebec. Move over to the northern part of Quebec and Ontario and your terrain may changes quite dramatically. You end up hunting in large forestry clear-cuts (ideally those that were done 6-8 years prior, so that the growing trees off a good source of food) and shot can then be taken between 100 and 400, 500 or more yards if you can and are equipped to do so. I’ve seen and taken both bulls and cows in that terrain and have seen some take a few steps, turn around and drop within a few seconds and some just take off for a brisk walk.

We’ve used 270wsm, 308win, 7mm mag, 30-06 and 300 win mag and all of dropped them effectively and cleanly with a variety of bullets. Shot placement is key, but that goes without saying. I have never been on an Elk hunt in the US (sure would love too), but from my experience, if a 270wsm can do the job on 1500lbs + moose, I’d say that a 264 win mag should fill the bill as well. To what range you can take it, that’s a very personal question that only you can answer, but I wouldn’t get necessarily caught up in the need for a large calibre magnum.

Cheers
B

 

[mcseal2]

There are a lot of Shiras moose in Wyoming. Tags are draw only but are not unobtainable. Might be cheaper than B.C. because you have to be guided as a non-resident alien in Canada to hunt moose. Last time I hunted deer in the Big Horn Mountains, we were tripping over nice Shiras bull moose every day. The Shiras only weigh a little more than an elk.

That is where I elk hunt and I've seen plenty of moose there also. It's still not cheap, I think non-resident preference points are over $200 if I remember right, and I know people who have been putting in for 20+ years and never drawn. We have seen lots of moose while deer and elk hunting there. The guy I hunt with that lives up there has put in his whole life as a resident and never drawn, he is headed to Canada this year to try and get his first moose.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Some areas have a lot more Shiras tags than others. At least they did while I was going up there from Utah. There were some units like the Little Bighorn drainage in the Big Horn Mountains that had over 1000 tags per year. I guess it depends where you hunt.

For me a $200 nonresident moose tag is cheap! Especially when compared to what it would cost me to hunt in B.C. or Alberta. Washington has no chance of being drawn and is not even good enough adds to try.

 

[DrMike]

Moose are big animals--intimidating when up close. I've called young bulls and cows from as far as 800 yards to within 50 yards or so. They come as much out of curiosity as anything. During the rut, the big bulls will certainly get up close to find an amorous cow or to stomp on an impertinent bull that dared come into his territory. Moose will run when shot, and Ben is correct that they can move surprisingly fast when stuck with an arrow. I have a tendency to shoot high on moose, and so a surprising number of moose I have invited to share my freezer have dropped at the shot when the bullet smashed the spine. I can't say that I have been sorry to see them drop. If they don't drop at the shot, they seem to turn on the afterburners and move instinctively and unerringly for whatever body of water is nearby. They are connoisseurs of beaver ponds, muskegs and rivers; they know which one is deepest and with the most mud on the bottom. Knowing that they are about to expire, they step into the deep water and await your approach to flop down. Usually, this final act is done in such a way to ensure that you will be bogged down in the bottom mud whist frigid water tests your masculinity. It is especially interesting to dress the moose under such conditions as the snow just begins to fall and darkness threatens to settle over the landscape. Ah, yes, moose hunting; there's nothing quite like it.

 

[Elkman]

gee that sounds like fun!!!!!! Maybe I will stick with easy animals like elk!

 

[SJB358]

gee that sounds like fun!!!!!! Maybe I will stick with easy animals like elk!

Easy animals like elk? Huh? Were we in the same camp? HA :grin: Scotty

 

[mcseal2]

Some areas have a lot more Shiras tags than others. At least they did while I was going up there from Utah. There were some units like the Little Bighorn drainage in the Big Horn Mountains that had over 1000 tags per year. I guess it depends where you hunt.

For me a $200 nonresident moose tag is cheap! Especially when compared to what it would cost me to hunt in B.C. or Alberta. Washington has no chance of being drawn and is not even good enough adds to try.

I was wrong on the price of preference points, I checked and they are $75, licenses are $1416. I may have to start buying points at that price.

 

[mcseal2]

I'm running the 140 AB as well. Still hoping to get a shot with it in my hands.

That sounds like it did really well on the mulie. Nothing too shabby about that.

I am kinda surprised you haven't gotten a 300WSM yet. I thought for sure you were going to buy/build one! I'm pretty stoked to start ringing mine out. Scotty

I still haven't ruled it out. I like to start building a rifle by deciding what bullet I want to use and how fast I want it to go, then workng backward. I think anytime I want more gun than my 264 I really want a 200gr AccuBond moving at least 2900fps. If I'm building a new elk rifle I want to build it to deliver exit wounds. I'm more confident in getting the velocity from a WM than a WSM in the same length rifle. Since I'm using the 264 for all my deer hunting now I put my 270WSM on gunbroker and I think when it sells I'm going to set the money back until I decide what to build for a big rifle. I hate to get rid of it but I'm trying to reduce my arsenal to guns that are set-up to be ideal for their intended use. I've taken my biggest whitetail and biggest muley with "Maggie", the 264 with her current barrel, and have decided to just go with it for deer and antelope. It seems to be my lucky rifle, I have 9 mounts in my house and Maggie put 6 of them there.

For building a new one I really like the tang safety rifles to carry with a pack like the Ruger 7 mag I picked up for an action. I'd made my mind up to build a 300WM off it and then it shot under 3/4" with 140 & 160gr accubonds so I hate to tear it down. I'm going to try the 175gr Partition and then I might spend the money from the WSM on a really nice lightweight stock for it. Then if I ever decide to turn it into a 300WM all I'll need is the barrel, and I can use it as my big rifle for now.

 

[SJB358]

I will let you know how the 300WSM acts with 200's. Heck, I might even load up some 200 PT's and AB's just to see what they run out of my WSM. I have 180 BT's loaded right now for break in, but I think I could use the 200's for the break in as well. At least just to run them across the Chrono to see what they are doing. I think 2850-2900 should be very easy to do in the Winchester. It has a long magazine that should allow me to seat them out a bit. It'll give me something to do during break in to make it more interesting. Scotty

 

[mcseal2]

I will let you know how the 300WSM acts with 200's. Heck, I might even load up some 200 PT's and AB's just to see what they run out of my WSM. I have 180 BT's loaded right now for break in, but I think I could use the 200's for the break in as well. At least just to run them across the Chrono to see what they are doing. I think 2850-2900 should be very easy to do in the Winchester. It has a long magazine that should allow me to seat them out a bit. It'll give me something to do during break in to make it more interesting. Scotty

I'd be curious to see how it does with both 180's and 200's with velocity and accuracy.
That is a 24" barrel right?

I went to town a little while ago since it was raining and picked up some RL22 to try in my 7 mag with the 175gr partitions. While there I made the mistake of looking at their used guns and handled a stainless M70 Classic 300WSM. They wanted $700 with a 3x9 Burris Fullfield 2 with ballistic reticle. I thought that was a little steep, but it was a nice rifle and they might come down some. If I get it, that scope would go nicely on my 22 mag and I have a the 4.5x14 Leupold CDS off my 270WSM.

I've thought about keeping the Browning and re-barrelling it to 300WSM, it already has the stock and trigger work done, just needs a barrel. I just didn't know if I'd get to 2850fps with the 200gr AccuBond in that case. Even 2800fps would give pretty decent trajectory with a BC of .588!

 

[DrMike]

Nosler 180 grain PT, 2920 fps, 1.09 inch groups

Nosler 180 grain AB, 2984 fps, 1.00 inch groups

Nosler 180 grain AB, 2905 fps, 0.88 inch groups

Speer 180 grain GS, 2939 fps, 0.71 inch groups

Sierra 200 grain GK, 2889 fps, 0.63 inch groups

Sierra 200 grain GK, 2951 fps, 1.07 inch groups

These are just a few of my recent efforts with two different rifles. Velocities are about what I would expect, and the accuracy potential has not been milked to its fullest yet.

 

[SJB358]

I will let you know how the 300WSM acts with 200's. Heck, I might even load up some 200 PT's and AB's just to see what they run out of my WSM. I have 180 BT's loaded right now for break in, but I think I could use the 200's for the break in as well. At least just to run them across the Chrono to see what they are doing. I think 2850-2900 should be very easy to do in the Winchester. It has a long magazine that should allow me to seat them out a bit. It'll give me something to do during break in to make it more interesting. Scotty

I'd be curious to see how it does with both 180's and 200's with velocity and accuracy.
That is a 24" barrel right?

I went to town a little while ago since it was raining and picked up some RL22 to try in my 7 mag with the 175gr partitions. While there I made the mistake of looking at their used guns and handled a stainless M70 Classic 300WSM. They wanted $700 with a 3x9 Burris Fullfield 2 with ballistic reticle. I thought that was a little steep, but it was a nice rifle and they might come down some. If I get it, that scope would go nicely on my 22 mag and I have a the 4.5x14 Leupold CDS off my 270WSM.

I've thought about keeping the Browning and re-barrelling it to 300WSM, it already has the stock and trigger work done, just needs a barrel. I just didn't know if I'd get to 2850fps with the 200gr AccuBond in that case. Even 2800fps would give pretty decent trajectory with a BC of .588!

Yeah, I bought the 300WSM with all the hopes that it would get into the high 2800's and low 2900's. Really, that is about all my 300WM would do. After pouring through enough manuals with the data that backed it up and with Mike's assistance, I think I made a good choice.

That M70 Classic is an awesome rifle MC. My 338 and 264 are Classics and I love the crap outta them and they are shooters. Had to bed the 264 and add a nicer stock (had the cheap plastic on it), but they shoot really well, and to be totally honest, I really like the older M70 trigger. A good smith can make them really break well.

Oh, and yeah, the Winchesters come with a 24" tube on their WSM's.

Nosler 180 grain PT, 2920 fps, 1.09 inch groups

Nosler 180 grain AB, 2984 fps, 1.00 inch groups

Nosler 180 grain AB, 2905 fps, 0.88 inch groups

Speer 180 grain GS, 2939 fps, 0.71 inch groups

Sierra 200 grain GK, 2889 fps, 0.63 inch groups

Sierra 200 grain GK, 2951 fps, 1.07 inch groups

These are just a few of my recent efforts with two different rifles. Velocities are about what I would expect, and the accuracy potential has not been milked to its fullest yet.

Dang you Mike. Now I gotta go load some stuff! Those loads look really good speed wise and I know you can tweak them further. Man, 2950 with a 200. I think I would have died and gone to elk country! Scotty

 

[DrMike]

This is the reason I'm shooting up the last of my 180 grain loads and shifting to the 200 grain bullet for my loads. I can always carry my 30-06 loaded with 180 grain bullets if I need to shoot them off.

 

[mcseal2]

Thanks Dr Mike for your post, sounds like you are getting real close to the same speed with 200's as 180's. Are those speeds from a 24" barrel?

Scotty my 264 is built on an M70 Classic action, I really like that action. I still prefer the tang safety for a mountain gun I will be packing long distances on a sling. I switch shoulders and have had the remington style safety rub into the fire position against my pack and allow the bolt to come open. I'd still have my Colt Light Rifle to use for elk except for that problem, I loved everything else about the gun. I haven't had that trouble with the Winchester 3 position but have heard others say it happens occasionally. With the tang I've never heard of it happening.

I'm still mulling the gun I looked at today over also, may see what I can trade him for.

 

[SJB358]

MC that is a good point about the safety but after carrying M70's over hill and dale, I think it's a pretty good safety as it does take some doing to push the safety off while carrying it slung, just cause its on the right side of the rifle. Not saying it won't or can't happen, but I haven't had an issue yet.

That Classic is a great action. I hope you find what your looking for. I will check out the 200gr ABs over the chrono the next time I get out. Kinda made me a little interested. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

Twenty-four inch tube, stock FN production 300 WSM. Consequently, my older New Haven production rifle gave virtually identical velocities with slightly tighter groups. However, I had worked with it longer. I anticipate that I will see 0.5 MOA by summer with this rifle. My SDs are single digits, so it is simply a matter of seating depth now to get the accuracy I want.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Moose are big animals--intimidating when up close. I've called young bulls and cows from as far as 800 yards to within 50 yards or so. They come as much out of curiosity as anything. During the rut, the big bulls will certainly get up close to find an amorous cow or to stomp on an impertinent bull that dared come into his territory. Moose will run when shot, and Ben is correct that they can move surprisingly fast when stuck with an arrow. I have a tendency to shoot high on moose, and so a surprising number of moose I have invited to share my freezer have dropped at the shot when the bullet smashed the spine. I can't say that I have been sorry to see them drop. If they don't drop at the shot, they seem to turn on the afterburners and move instinctively and unerringly for whatever body of water is nearby. They are connoisseurs of beaver ponds, muskegs and rivers; they know which one is deepest and with the most mud on the bottom. Knowing that they are about to expire, they step into the deep water and await your approach to flop down. Usually, this final act is done in such a way to ensure that you will be bogged down in the bottom mud whist frigid water tests your masculinity. It is especially interesting to dress the moose under such conditions as the snow just begins to fall and darkness threatens to settle over the landscape. Ah, yes, moose hunting; there's nothing quite like it.

I have hunted moose in Quebec but never shot one. My dad has had the pleasure though that DrMike speaks of, with trying to dress and butcher an expired moose in 3 feet of freezing water. My dad spoke fondly of doing this, whenever I mentioned the word moose to him.

 

[gerry]

Moose are big animals--intimidating when up close. I've called young bulls and cows from as far as 800 yards to within 50 yards or so. They come as much out of curiosity as anything. During the rut, the big bulls will certainly get up close to find an amorous cow or to stomp on an impertinent bull that dared come into his territory. Moose will run when shot, and Ben is correct that they can move surprisingly fast when stuck with an arrow. I have a tendency to shoot high on moose, and so a surprising number of moose I have invited to share my freezer have dropped at the shot when the bullet smashed the spine. I can't say that I have been sorry to see them drop. If they don't drop at the shot, they seem to turn on the afterburners and move instinctively and unerringly for whatever body of water is nearby. They are connoisseurs of beaver ponds, muskegs and rivers; they know which one is deepest and with the most mud on the bottom. Knowing that they are about to expire, they step into the deep water and await your approach to flop down. Usually, this final act is done in such a way to ensure that you will be bogged down in the bottom mud whist frigid water tests your masculinity. It is especially interesting to dress the moose under such conditions as the snow just begins to fall and darkness threatens to settle over the landscape. Ah, yes, moose hunting; there's nothing quite like it.

I have hunted moose in Quebec but never shot one. My dad has had the pleasure though that DrMike speaks of, with trying to dress and butcher an expired moose in 3 feet of freezing water. My dad spoke fondly of doing this, whenever I mentioned the word moose to him.

Add the fresh grizzly tracks you just saw and the darkness gets even more interesting

 

[mcseal2]

MC that is a good point about the safety but after carrying M70's over hill and dale, I think it's a pretty good safety as it does take some doing to push the safety off while carrying it slung, just cause its on the right side of the rifle. Not saying it won't or can't happen, but I haven't had an issue yet.

That Classic is a great action. I hope you find what your looking for. I will check out the 200gr ABs over the chrono the next time I get out. Kinda made me a little interested. Scotty

My problem is I regularly switch my rifle back and forth between shoulders when carrying it slung. A right handed gun carried on the left side can rub off on occasion. I've never personally had it happen with a M70 but heard from others who have. I'd feel pretty safe with one but not quite as safe as with a tang safety.

 

[DrMike]

Add the fresh grizzly tracks you just saw and the darkness gets even more interesting

I remember one especially fascinating hunt with friends. They hiked back into a lick while I settled into a brush pile in a logging slash. About thirty minutes after they walked in, I heard a shot. I waited until I was assured there wasn't a second shot and no animals running out of the woods into the slash to walk into the lick. As I moved in, I found myself stepping over steaming grizzly scat covering their tracks. Closer inspection showed a big board tracking the boys. I hustled on into the lick to discover they had dropped a fine young bull. I mentioned the grizzly scat. Neither of the fellows had seen any sign of bear on their way in, but they were definitely shaken when I pointed it out to them. I stayed with the moose while they went out to get the quad. I never saw the bear, but I assume it was the same boar that charged me and another friend a month later in that area when we walked into another logging slash and stumbled upon him on a gut pile. He was a pretty good specimen of mountain grizzly, measuring about eight feet and in his prime. After a bluff charge, he loped back toward his gut pile and we stepped back out to the road about a quarter mile behind us. All the while, he was circling and trying to wind us. It was moose hunting at its finest, and that boar thought it was hunter hunting at its finest.