280 R.E.M., 22" barrel

[frankm]

Never had a 280 but giving it serious consideration. Have a 7RM but whenever I feel that much horsepower needed I typically drag out the 300 WM.

Can the 280 be made to perform well, 3000 fps w/140, 2900 fps w/150 and 2800 fps+ w/160 with the 22" barrel and loading to pressures similar to the 270 Win?? My research says good things about R22 and IMR4831.
Also, as my 50 s are in the rear view mirror would like a lighter rifle and looking at R.E.M. 700 SS Mountain.. question there; does anyone own this rifle with the B&C stock? Remington says it's 6.5 lbs but they reflect that weight in their literature for both the long and short actions... makes me skeptical on the 280 s real weight.

Thanks to everyone in advance for any help/clarity they can share on my above questions! (And yes I ve seen the Kimber Montana 280AI but out of my budget) lol

 

[gerry]

My friend has an A bolt 280 Rem with a 22" barrel and we developed a load with the old 160 gr Partition Gold bullets that broke 2800 fps with H 4350. H 4831 sc was similar but H 4350 edged it out for accuracy but another gun might be different. I don't think you should have any trouble safely reaching those speeds, he is almost out of those bullets so we will have to work up a new load.

 

[DrMike]

The particular 280 for which this data was generated has a 24 inch barrel. However, it does provide me with honest 2900 to 3000 fps loads with 139/140 grain pills.

WW	CCI BR2	HDY 139 GMX	RL17	54	3035 +/- 10	0.56
WW	CCI BR2	HDY 139 GMX	R905	59.5	3098 +/- 6	1.05
FC	CCI 200	HDY 139 GMX	WXR	61.5	3158 +/- 8	0.77
						
FC	F210M	NOS 140 E-TIP	RL22	58.9	2937 +/- 4	0.42
FC	F210M	NOS 140 E-TIP	R905	58.5	2985 +/- 1	1.34
WW	F210M	NOS 140 E-TIP	RL17	55.4	3039 +/- 9	0.95
						
FC	CCI BR2	NOS 140 AB	RL19	59.3	3081 +/- 8	0.93
						
FC	F210M	SWF 150 SCI	VN560	58.5	2911 +/- 22	0.93
NOS	F210M	NOS 150 ABLR	VN560	60	3033 +/- 12	0.92

 

[DrMike]

This data is from my older Winchester 280. It has a 22 inch barrel. The velocities are at or near 2800 fps for a variety of 139/140 grain bullets.

FC	F210	NOS 140 BT	WXR	59	2925 +/- 27	0.59
						
RP	F210	NOS 140 BT	WXR	59.5	2886 +/- 16	0.73
						
RP	R9.5	NOS 140 BT	H1000	62	2813 +/- 27	0.95
						
FC	F210	NOS 140 BT	WMR	59.5	2871 +/- 10	1.5
						
RP	R9.5	NOS 140 PT	H100V	54	2925 +/- 40	0.76
						
FC	F210M	BAR 140 FB	W760	52.5	2853 +/- 24	1.34
						
RP	F210M	BAR 140 FB	W760	52.5	2797 +/- 29	1.35
						
FC	F210M	CT 140 BST	WXR	59	2836 +/- 5	0.63

 

[Nimrod84]

Frankm, your velocities may be possible, but they are not a sure thing - most rifles (and bullets) seem to run a bit slower than what you are after. Nosler has even mentioned in one of their manuals that the 280 Remington often has shorter throats than the SAMMI max length; so bullets often can't be seated out very far. I don't know if that would be relevant to the Remington rifle you are looking at, but it has been true on the two 280's I own.

Some numbers from one of my 280's; I run 162 grain SST's in the mid to low 2700 fps range (using IMR 4831) and 160 grain AccuBond's in the high 2700 fps or low 2800 fps range (using RL22) out of a 24" barrel and I can seat fairly close to SAMMI max length in this rifle. I run those velocities due to accuracy considerations but can push them faster. 175 grain Nosler Partions can leave the tube in the high 2600 fps and low 2700 fps range with the right powder (IMR 4955) and brass life has been fine.

 

[frankm]

Thanks to everyone so far for your in sight and experience! Please keep the loading data coming..

Anyone with input on rifle weight question and whether 6 1/2 pounds is reasonable claim?

 

[Nimrod84]

Not sure if it helps, but a review states 6.625lbs for the 270 and 30-06 LSS (wood stocked version) vs. 6.5lbs for the short actions. http://www.guns.com/reviews/remington-m ... ntain-lss/

Normally I assume a quarter pound difference between short and long actions. I would think that the Remington Mountain SS you are looking at would not run over 7lbs out of the box. Kimber hunters are advertised to run 2 ounces heavier with the long action, which lines up pretty well with advertised LSS Remington weight difference.

Edited to add, I know you ruled out the standard Kimber 84L's due to price, but the Kimber 280 Ackley Hunters retail for $700-$800 and are advertised to weigh 5lbs 12ounces with a 24" barrel. I have no first hand experience with these, just thought I should mention to you as you might not know about them and you had mentioned Kimber 84's earlier... Personally, I would be a little concerned with recoil and handling of such a light rifle.

 

[jason miller]

I like the .280, but just to add to your questioning....

A 22" 7-08 should be capable of 2850-2950 with a 140. Maybe over 3000 if your rifle likes RL17. And I used to shoot the 162 a-max in mine at over 2700 with 46 grains of RL17. It might have been even closer to 2750. And DrMike ran a QL back then that suggested I was under 65,000 psi and that one might be able to nudge past 2750 fps with that bullet and powder. If you're still shopping, and you want the short barrel and a short rifle, don't overlook the little 7-08.

 

[6mm Remington]

I had a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle with the walnut stock. I'm not sure on the exact weight but it was very light. I used IMR4350 (54.0 grs.) with a 140 gr. Nosler Partition and got 2940 fps out of the 22" barrel on this rifle. I'm sure some other powders could have given me more fps, but this load shot very well with no pressure signs. Those light rifles like yours and the one I had need to be shot slow to get the best accuracy as the barrels heat up quickly. Take a COUPLE minutes between shots, and I always tested with 3-shot groups. Also means a lot for the accuracy part if you hold the rifle the same for each shot. Make sure you are using good form. Great rifle and I loved it, but I just had to have a different one so I sold it. Was going to build a 280 or a 280 AI ended up going with the Ackley version.

Best of luck.

 

[frankm]

Jason, you hit the nail on the head... I do have a 24" 7-08 in the SPS SS and riding in a B&C stock. I get 2710 fps with a stout charge of H4350 and shoots easy 3/4" groups. It also gets 2925 fps with 139/140 s and Varget or H380. Also 3/4" or better... thus my questions on the 280... not sure the performance gain is there. I have a 7RM that pushes the 162 AMax 3050 and was thinking of selling it and then inserting the 280. The older I get the milder cartridges and lighter rifles I like.

Thx to everyone thus far for some great input!

 

[jason miller]

A long time ago, I decided that it looked as though the 280 was good for about 150 fps over the 7-08, and the 7RM was good for another 150 fps or so over the 280. These days, with all the newer powders, I'm not so sure the gaps are that large. And I'm growing less convinced that they matter.

Take this with a grain of salt from someone that's never actually used a rifle on a game animal larger than a coyote...

 

[PJGunner]

" I have a 7RM that pushes the 162 AMax 3050 and was thinking of selling it and then inserting the 280. The older I get the milder cartridges and lighter rifles I like."

Yeah, me too. I have a custom Mauser (1909 Argentine) in .280 Rem. that came out much heavier than I care for. (Almost 10 pounds. :shock: ) I've been trying to find a load it likes so I can take it on an elk hunt. Seems I may have hit the jackpot using a powder no longer available, Winchester's WMR. I shot two three shot groups with shots spaced about two minutes apart for an average velocity of 2907 FPS from the 24" barrel. Both groups were in the .75 to .80". Charge was 57.8 gr., Winchester WLR primer and Winchester nickel plated brass. Bullet was the old Speer Grand Slam with the two cores. (Finally found something that will shoot that bullet into a group rather than a pattern. :mrgreen: ) Dunno what one could substitute for WMR and looking at several burn rate charts, comparisons run from IMR4350 to Re22. I do have a lifetime supply of that powder though as I like it in the .270 and .300 Win. mag. as well. For some reason it does not work in the 30-06. :?: :?: :?: I've never figured that one out.
Paul B.

 

[Nimrod84]

Just my less than 2 cent opinion. But I don't see any functional difference between a 7mm-08 and 280 Rem with lighter bullets. The difference I see is that the 280 Rem can handle the long 150's (ABLR, Swift Sirocco) and 160's better, as the 280 Rem has more case capacity and thus has a wider usable powder burn rate range with the heavy bullets. The 280 Rem thus tends to offer more opportunities to find a golden fast load.

With that wider range of suitable burn rates, I also think the 280 Rem plays a little nicer in regards to powder compression. Noslers data for 150 grain bullets out of a 7mm-08 using RL19 starts with 101% powder compression and ends at 110% compression. The 280 Rem tops out at 96% powder compression and is a bit faster with RL19 verse the 7mm-08 top RL19 load.

 

[Blkram]

And at the end of the day, the animals shot with either will not be able to tell the difference of which cartridge and velocity they were cleanly harvested with (as long as bullet placement is correct).

See if they will let you try the 280 if you supply the ammo. If they will, shoot it and see how it performs.
If you like it, buy it, and enjoy!

I have owned a few 280's over the years (my favourite cartridge), and now have a customized left handed Remington 700. I used a LH XCR action, a factory CDL SF Ltd barrel and hace this pillar and glass bedded to both the XCR stock for rough country/poor weather hunts, and a LSS stock. It shoots 1/2" groups with the now discontinued Federal Premium 140gr AccuBond load. I am workings to find it's replacement handload.

I too, have owned the 7MM Rem Mag, and loved its performance with the Federal Premium 165 gr SGK. I also own a custom Sako AIV in 7MM STW that shoots the Federal Premium 160 gr SGK into 3" groups at 400 yards and the 160 gr AccuBond into 1" groups at 300 yards at 3220 fps. This rifle weighs 7 pounds even w/o rings and scope, and carries easily all day, even in the mountains. While the recoil of either of these rifles is/was not significant, that of the 280 is less and appreciated.

Good luck in your search!

 

[frankm]

Thanks to all for the wise advice and some other options to consider.

Do know that I m now going to lighten my 7-08 regardless of 280 /7 RM decisions. Got some Talleys on the way and aluminum bolt shroud and firing pin. Estimating gun weight reduction of 5 ounces. Want to keep my 3.5-10 Leupold on rifle for now. Tough to lose much weight with scope short of going with a fixed power or compact and there's compromises then as well!

 

[pharmseller]

FYI I'm a 7mm-08 homer. I've killed deer, elk, and antelope using 140 grain bullets started at 2877 fps using Big Game powder and Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers.

Plug those figures into a ballistics program and evaluate the real-world difference 150 fps makes. Zero.




P

 

[jason miller]

Thanks to all for the wise advice and some other options to consider.

Do know that I m now going to lighten my 7-08 regardless of 280 /7 RM decisions. Got some Talleys on the way and aluminum bolt shroud and firing pin. Estimating gun weight reduction of 5 ounces. Want to keep my 3.5-10 Leupold on rifle for now. Tough to lose much weight with scope short of going with a fixed power or compact and there's compromises then as well!

Well, if you're really counting ounces, you could swap that 3.5-10 for a vx2 3-9x40 and save 1.6 ounces, or a 2-7x33 and save 2.3 ounces. Chopping a couple inches off the barrel would save an ounce or two at the expense of 40-50 fps. I don't know what BC stock you have on the rifle, but their stocks with aluminum bedding blocks are kinda heavy. A McMillan Edge would almost certainly weigh less than any BC stock- although the Alaskan/Ti/Mountain stocks that they have are supposed to be pretty light. Or if you were up for a project, you could buy a Bansner/Hi Tech or whatever they're calling them now for a lot less than a McMillan, finish it yourself, and again almost certainly save weight over just about any BC.

 

[6mm Remington]

Frankm I am a huge .280 Remington fan and have been for years and years. I loved my .280 Remington in a Model 700 MTN rifle, but I always wanted a 280 in a Winchester Model 70 with the controlled round feed. I found a Classic Sporter in 270 and had the barrel pulled and I put a Shilen match grade 24" barrel in 280 AI. I know right, it was a tough choice to decide which one of these I had my new custom rifle chambered in. I would have been very happy with either one if truth be told, but I sure do love how that 280 AI is working so far. I'm going to play with some different bullets and loads, but for right now the 140 gr. Nosler Partition with IMR7827SSC powder is chronographed at 3230 fps! No pressure signs and good accuracy. That's pretty darn close on the tail of the 7mm Rem if not right there with it! A 22" barrel to keep it light like you want it to be would not hurt those numbers that much either!!

David

 

[frankm]

Pharmseller, you are right, 150 +/- fps doesn't matter. I ve ran the drops in JBM and confirmed them at the range. The 7-08 is plenty flat and capable. New cartridges are fun to play with though .. lol

Jason, you are correct that not much weight savings in scope changes and stock is best opportunity. I just don't want to spend the $$ on a lighter weight stock even though there's 10 ounces or so of difference. My B&C is bedded and fitted with a 2.9" Wyatts box so going to stick with it. Thx for all the input guys!

 

[frankm]

David, your experiences with 280 AI are tempting though! The Montana I handled was nice; almost too lightweight for me though. That Rem 700 Mtn in 280 punched out to an Ackley could be awful nice though ... !!