.30-06 vs a couple of 7mm mags...

[Guy Miner]

Friendly conversation please. :grin: Cartridge conversations tend to get folks all riled up, and we don't need to do that.

A couple of folks, not necessarily here, commented how impressed they were with the 325 yard first round kill on my black bear. Thanks, and I think that comes down to a couple of things: First, I practice at 300 yards regularly with my hunting rifles. Lately much of that practice has been with that particular .30-06 Rem 700. Second, the .30-06 is hardly the lumbering relic many seem to believe it to be... It actually compares fairly well to a couple of robust 7mm magnums. Let's take a look:

I largely stuck with the Nosler manual, and my own observations for this comparison. All these are with 24" barrels, very typical of hunting rifles.

According to Nosler, the .30-06 with a 165 - 168 grain bullet can be expected to reach:
2872 fps via H4350 (57.5 grains)
2909 fps via RL-17
3002 fps via RL-22 (63 grains)

BTW - Hodgdon also has several .30-06 loads in excess of 2900 fps with 165 gr bullets. Including a max of 59 grains of H4350, which is what I'm running in my Rem 700.

The good old 7mm Rem mag - a really nice cartridge which I hunted with for several years - is considered a "high velocity" cartridge, with a lot of case capacity. And it is, but let's take a look. According to Nosler, the 7mm Rem Mag, with a 160 gr bullet:
3058 fps via 63 grains of RL-22! (note the max charge of 63 grains and 3002 fps in the .30-06)
3066 fps via RL-25, a thoroughly modern powder
3077 fps via MAGPRO - which I must admit, I've never used

The up-to-date 7mm WSM attempts to keep up with the 7mm Rem mag as follows:
2927 fps via Viht N560
2954 fps via HUNTER (a powder I happen to like for my .30-06 and 180's)
3065 fps via MAGPRO

So... I'm seeing similar powder charges, and similar velocities, with similar bullet weights among the three cartridges...

Now the .30 cal bullets have an inferior BC to be sure:

.30 cal 165 gr Ballistic Tip or AccuBond is shown as .475 BC
.30 cal 165 gr Partition is shown as .410 BC
.284" 160 gr AccuBond is shown as .531 BC (dang, that's GOOD!)
.284" 160 gr Partition is shown as .475 BC (sound familiar?)

In my experience high BC numbers play a strong role in longer range shooting. Shooting which I simply don't do at game animals. I'm confident at 300 yards, if I can steady the rifle. 400 yards on a really good day, with a very steady rest. And ya, the NRA calls me a "long range high master" so I do know a thing or to about actual long range shooting. I'm just not comfortable doing it anymore with game animals. That's a different subject, but worth a mention here. Point is, at ranges I consider "normal" - out to 300 yards or a bit more - BC isn't that big a deal.

I'm not trying to say the ancient .30-06 matches or beats the vaunted "high velocity" 7mm magnums, but... It's not all that far behind either. I submit that if you can cleanly take game at 300 yards with your 7mm magnum, you can also do so with a .30-06, and if all you've got is a .30-06, there really isn't any need to go purchase a 7mm magnum... Just not all that much difference in the field.

Regards, Guy

 

[DrMike]

Hard to argue with your logic, Guy. You are, of course, correct. I appreciate what you are saying about being uncomfortable with shots beyond 400 yards or so. In point of fact, my longest shot to date was right at 325 yards. I was very comfortable. I am capable of delivering reasonable accuracy at much longer yardage, but I personally am uncomfortable doing so on game. I admire those who do take game at longish distance with a degree of regularity; but I prefer to get closer or pass on the shot. Fortunately, there is sufficient game in my AO that I can make that decision and not limit my opportunities. The 30-06 is assuredly sufficient to take game cleanly out to very impressive yardages.

 

[lefty315]

Guy, excellent point. I once had a friend tell me he'd never own a .30-06 because it had a rainbow trajectory. I tried to explain a few things to him similar to what you've stated, but to no avail. I was talking to an old retired friend on your side of the mountains today and we were discussing the merits if his old pre 64 '06 and the 165 Noslers he's used for 30 plus years.

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

Guy,

I am embarrassed to say I started out as a 7mm Rem Mag junkie. I thought it was a barn burner.
Not up until this year, did I realize that the .30-06 was really close in speed with lighter bullets and energy, but with the 180 gr bullets, it will equal or exceed the 7mm Rem Mag up close and further away.
The new powders have made the 06 as viable today than any other round.
Now, when I look for a rifle, and want an all around caliber, it's not the 7mm Rem Mag I look for, it's the tried and true .30-06!
Great shooting on your part, by the way!
Congratulations on your trophy!

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

Guy,

Not to get off subject, but if you only had a .308, would you still have gone bear hunting with the 45 grs of Varget behind the same bullet at 2750 fps?

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[Thebear_78]

I wouldn’t think twice about running a 165 Nosler Ballistic tip out of a 308 at those velosities on black bear out to 300+ yards.

The fact t is there isnt really an anthills worth of difference between most of our hunting cartridges. To find any real meaningful differnce in trajectory, in my opinion, you need about 300fps more velocity in a given bullet weight and caliber.

Below is a comparison chart.

308 win 165 BT
30/06 165 BT
300 RUM. 165 BT
7mm REM 160 accb
270 win. 150 BT

All zeroed at 250 yards. Not much difference out to 400 yards

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

I wouldn’t think twice about running a 165 Nosler Ballistic tip out of a 308 at those velosities on black bear out to 300+ yards.

The fact t is there isnt really an anthills worth of difference between most of our hunting cartridges. To find any real meaningful differnce in trajectory, in my opinion, you need about 300fps more velocity in a given bullet weight and caliber.

Below is a comparison chart.

308 win 165 BT
30/06 165 BT
300 RUM. 165 BT
7mm REM 160 accb
270 win. 150 BT

All zeroed at 250 yards. Not much difference out to 400 yards

Thank you very much! Makes me happy to see the graph and not much difference.
I do have my .300 WSM, on hand as well, but I think I'm going to be using my .308's a lot more.

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[Guy Miner]

Guy,

Not to get off subject, but if you only had a .308, would you still have gone bear hunting with the 45 grs of Varget behind the same bullet at 2750 fps?

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

Yes, absolutely! And I have taken my .308 with 45 grains of Varget and the 165 gr Nosler for bear and deer. Didn't get a bear with it, but wouldn't have hesitated.

Regards, Guy

 

[wildgene]

...well, since we're discussing the relative merits of mor'dedder, let's throw in S.D. & compare Johnathans to Granny Smiths, in a similar bullet weight the 7mm will have a higher S.D. & penetrate better (on paper @ least), getting 3002fps w/ RL-22, I had to look. A 114% case fill??? Who's got the patience to drop & pound 114% powder into a case, how many bullets are gonna "pop out" in the mag under recoil??? I'd also suggest 3050fps/ MV is more realistic w/ a 160gr. 7mm. I used a 7mmRM almost exclusively for 25yrs., now I'm more apt to carry a .300 or .325 WSM, but out to 400yds. I doubt that any critter will actually notice the difference...

 

[Guy Miner]

I have to admit - I've never seen 3,000 fps from a 165 and a .30-06, RL-22 or not... Nosler has published that figure for some years now.

No problem exceeding 2,900 fps though.

Guy

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

I have to admit - I've never seen 3,000 fps from a 165 and a .30-06, RL-22 or not... Nosler has published that figure for some years now.

No problem exceeding 2,900 fps though.

Guy

I'll admit as well, that an 06 with a 22" barrel will squeak over 2900's sometimes, but stay in the high 2800's all day long. Now, add 2 more inches of barrel, like Guy's rifle, then 2900 fps is more common.
I'm more apt to use a 180 gr bullet for everything, and push it close to 2860fps as much as possible. In the 06, that's hard to beat, even with a Nosler BT.


HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[SJB358]

Federals 7mm Rem Mag ammo usually runs just over 2900 with the 160 Partition, or at least the few boxes I've chronoed for friends. I'm not sure you'd ever tell the difference between that the 165 Partition or AccuBond at 2850-2900. Both are awesome set ups. Hard to pick a winner but hand loading seems to help the 7 Rem out with 160's. Never seen a real big trick to get 3050 with a 160 and 2850-2900 with a 175 in the big 7.

 

[joelkdouglas]

I hunted with only a 30-06 for about 10 or so years. I'm breaking into some other stuff now, not because the 30-06 isn't up to the task. In those 10 years the -06 took the smallest deer you ever saw (at least it didn't have spots!), up to a smallish 6x6 elk.

When I was putting more weight of effort into 180s I saw 2800 on the chrono, 2900 with 165s.

I just started playing with a 7 a smidge bigger than the 7 Rem Mag, and 10 years from now I'll have an opinion of its performance. One difference, with both rifles sighted in around 3 inches high at 100, the 30-06 zeroes at 250 yards and the 7 MSM at 300 yards. Not that big a difference out to 300 yards, but (only suggesting a random distance) a 340 yard shot would favor the 7.

Note: I've never taken a 340 yard shot on game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[preacher]

I totally agree Uncle Guy! When it comes to "Big Game" (bigger than deer) a 180 or (better) a 200gr out of a 30-06 will absolutely chill the "doo-doo" on them! In my observations, in the field, there is no discernable difference between it and a 175gr or 160gr 7mm Mag bullet! What I have seen is the 7mm Mag really shines as a "long range deer rifle" with the 140s ( and some high B.C. 150's) But heavier game? I'd take an '06 with 180-200gr bullet everyday. Put in a 240 Woodleigh at 2400fps and you got one mean motor scooter on bulls to bruins to big stinky hogs! Good Post sir!

 

[preacher]

I've taken a Blackbuck antelope at 370yds with a 257 Weatherby and 115gr Partition going 3200fps; a 375yd big Namibian Gemsbuk with a 180 XBT at 3100 from a 300 winmag; an antelope doe at 347yds with a 180 NBT going 3100, also a 300 winmag; a 347yd Black Wildebeast with a 200gr Barnes X going 2970 ( admittedly a very hot loaded 35 Whelan AI, come to find out!) and a couple of Springbuks from 350 to 375 with that 300 winmag 180XBT. All this to say that if one "just has" to shoot beyond 300yds, while a good 30-06 load will take a bit of effort ( good scope, load, form, etc.) it takes a really big step up, and in my opinion (mind you) at least a 300 winmag (that 200gr Barnes Whelan AI was comparable to it too) or for lighter game, that 257 Weatherby. These long shots at game are the "exceptions to the rule" as they were "money hunts" and I was pressed for time. 300yds is a very long way for anything, in my opinion. Most folks "will not ever" attain the equipment & expertise of truly "Long Range" hunting ( figure from 300yds to over a 1000yds.) Personally, I was "very apprehensive" of having to shoot that far on game...I don't like it. I would rather get 250yds or closer...that's a "chip shot" for me and my 30-06!

 

[Kodiak]

By sundown there won't be a 30-06 rifle to be found for sale in any gunshop!

I'm about to go shoppin' for another one in a few min.

All the best, Jim

 

[wildgene]

Federals 7mm Rem Mag ammo usually runs just over 2900 with the 160 Partition, or at least the few boxes I've chronoed for friends. I'm not sure you'd ever tell the difference between that the 165 Partition or AccuBond at 2850-2900. Both are awesome set ups. Hard to pick a winner but hand loading seems to help the 7 Rem out with 160's. Never seen a real big trick to get 3050 with a 160 and 2850-2900 with a 175 in the big 7.

...Scotty, Scotty, Scotty, the 7mm 160gr. has a considerably higher S.D. than the .30 cal. 165gr., there2fer, it gonna kill stuff considerably mo'dedder, it's "Science"... :roll: :twisted: :lol: :mrgreen:

 

[6mm Remington]

Now my Ruger #1B has 26" of barrel and with 165 gr. bullets I am getting 2940 fps with my 30-06 using IMR4350 - 57.4 grains. "

I've never tried some of the wonder powders to see if I could get 3000 fps plus or not. IMR4350 has always worked so well and shoots so accurately that I have not seen the need to try anything different.

I did not have a chronograph when I had a Remington 700 30-06 with the 22" barrel so I cannot say how much velocity I was getting out of it or not, but the exact same load for the Ruger #1B is what the 700 liked also.

 

[HAWKEYESATX]

Economics wise, it's a lot less to buy ammo, and reloading components for the .30-06. Not to mention there's a plethora of bullets on the market for .30 cal, as well.

HawkeyeSATX a.k.a. Bryce

 

[SJB358]

Federals 7mm Rem Mag ammo usually runs just over 2900 with the 160 Partition, or at least the few boxes I've chronoed for friends. I'm not sure you'd ever tell the difference between that the 165 Partition or AccuBond at 2850-2900. Both are awesome set ups. Hard to pick a winner but hand loading seems to help the 7 Rem out with 160's. Never seen a real big trick to get 3050 with a 160 and 2850-2900 with a 175 in the big 7.

...Scotty, Scotty, Scotty, the 7mm 160gr. has a considerably higher S.D. than the .30 cal. 165gr., there2fer, it gonna kill stuff considerably mo'dedder, it's "Science"... :roll: :twisted: :lol: :mrgreen:

I'm still trying to figure out what this 30/06 is that everyone's talking about? Must be something new :lol: