348/358---300 H & H/35 Whelen

[Anonymous]

One last question for my friend from the North, Hodgeman and Idahoctd, what do you dislike about the lever ?

That's a fair question and this has been a very informative thread.

I started my hunting career with an old Marlin in .30-30 that I still have- I keep threatening to hunt with it again just for fun.

My biggest hang up with the lever gun is shooting from prone and a lever seems to really get in the way. The other one is that the flat point bullets tend to lose velocity and limit range considerably. Since I hunt almost exclusively in high tundra and alpine country where shooting tends to be long and I shoot a lot from prone- it's perhaps more that they're the wrong tool for the job more than actual dislike.

Both of those things are fixable- you can get levers in the BLR that shoot spitzer bullets and have a short throw and it would be fine in that role and an older Savage 99 would be much the same. Nothing at all wrong with either- just never been my cup of tea. Perhaps I just mentally associate lever guns with the big oak forests of the east coast where I started. If I spent more time in moose country, down in the swamps or in the timber- a big bore lever would be awfully nice.

 

[lefty315]

One thing my Granddad always liked about levers, especially when he was up in Alaska, was the fact you could reload with a round in the chamber. He thought that was an advantage while in big bear country.

 

[Anonymous]

One thing my Granddad always liked about levers, especially when he was up in Alaska, was the fact you could reload with a round in the chamber. He thought that was an advantage while in big bear country.

That's a good point and something that levers are uniquely configured for.

As a total aside- the M71/.348 was pretty popular up here among the big bear guides back in the day. Harold Johnson had a nice cottage industry converting them to 450 Alaskan as well.

 

[lefty315]

Granddad bought his model 71 for $135 up in Alaska in 1954 I think. He said it would've been $10 cheaper if he would have bought it in the lower 48. He said he did think about having it converted but never did. He sold it for $400 in 1969 when he went back to Montana permanently. I'd say that was a good investment.

He always thought it was a huge mistake when they stopped making 250 grain factory ammo for the .348.

 

[Europe]

Hodgeman, there is your mistake, levers are meant to be used from the back of a horse LOL seriously you make a good point.

lefty215, I remember those days, when you could buy a gun for those prices, of course we were only making 500 dollars a month back then, or less. As I am sure you know woodleigh now makes the 250 grain for the old girl.

Scotty, saw your message to Gerry, what was your opinion of the GCS bullets? Also saw your message to me and we decided on the 6 x 36 Leupold which will look nice on that rifle and it will be fine for Elk and Lion. I have some concern about it being as good for those little deer in the Arizona mountains especially in the early morning light, but she is young with young eyes

Cheyenne, I bet that 200 gr Norma Oryz works well, from everything I have heard those are another premium bullet, like Nosler, Northfork, Swift,. Scotty I know you like to play with different bullets, have you worked with the Oryz ? How about you Gil, Dewey, anyone ( except cheyenne )

 

[SJB358]

Granddad bought his model 71 for $135 up in Alaska in 1954 I think. He said it would've been $10 cheaper if he would have bought it in the lower 48. He said he did think about having it converted but never did. He sold it for $400 in 1969 when he went back to Montana permanently. I'd say that was a good investment.

He always thought it was a huge mistake when they stopped making 250 grain factory ammo for the .348.

Cool story Lefty. I bet there are some similar ones about other 348's. I see a lot of used ones from Alaska.

You're right, that 250 grain bullet is pretty wicked in the 348. I bet the 200 grain Swift A-Frame at 2500-2600 might be okay.... now you've got the wheels turning Lefty...

April, Brandon didn't go with me out west this Fall. I thought he would've left for recruit training by the time the fall came around but his date had been pushed back.

 

[SJB358]

That 6x36 will be fine April. A lot of mates use them and this fall I got to sit alongside my partner as he smoked a bull at the end of the day at 365 yards. Matter of fact, I may put one on the Mashburn. Can't beat the weight savings and it'll perform in any kind of normal light in the west or east.

I have shot a bunch of the Oryxs into water jugs and paper but haven't taken any animals with them. They look like great bullets and have been very accurate for me. Maybe this fall.... they do make a 170 Oryx that may be skookum in the MSM.

 

[SJB358]

Oh.... GSC's... same as the Oryxs. Working them a little but they are very cool bullets just need to load some up and give them a whirl.

 

[lefty315]

I've looked at the 250's for the .348 I have but have never loaded anything other than a Hornady 200 grain. I have been curious about the Hawk bullets and may buy some just to try out.

 

[Blkram]

It's kinda funny Cheyenne were comparing two ALMOST dead cartridges. One is a little older than the other but they are both fairly rare in most places. I've got them both and like them both just fine. My 358 does have a scope on it and the 348 has a receiver sight on it. I'm probably using the same load as you with the 250 Woodleighs at around 2300 and the 358 runs a 225 PT at 2450. Not a dang Nickles worth of difference. The 358 has taken a bunch of deer for me. The 348 hasn't yet got blooded but I do like carrying it. I could have used it this year in Oregon since I shot the danged elk at 75 yards.... oh well, maybe next year.

Cheyenne, Scotty is not talking about Dr Mike and I in his first two sentences (-;

Scotty, excellent post and point's. If you like levers, the old savage and winchester are a couple of classics for sure. we never owned the savage in a 358, but the 250/3000 was a sweet little rifle. I hope that yourt 348 gets blood on it real soon.

Scotty a little off topic, but from memory didn't your wife get a rifle gifted to her, was wondering what she has hunted with it. Also did your son go with you again this year when you went west and did he get anything ? Happy New Year Scotty and everyone

Europe, too funny!!! LOL

I have not used the Oryx bullet loaded by Norma. But have read about its performance. The only factory Norma ammo that I have used was in the 6.5x55 Swede with the 140 and 156 grain bullets, back in the mid 90's. I believe the 140 was the Partition, but do not recall what bullet was in the one box of 156 gr loads that I had. I did harvest game (moose and deer) with the 140 load, but not the 156. I preferred the flatter trajectory of the lighter bullet, but can appreciate the penetration qualities that the 156 trainer would have on larger, heavier game.

Cheyenne, where I talked about the Savage Model 99, I failed to also mention the Winchester Model 88 in 358 Winchester, and that it to comes with a detachable magazine.

I saw a photo in an old gun magazine once that showed a pair of customized Model 88's that John Wooters had built in 7MM-08 with full length stocks. Beautiful firearms. I know that this was the genesis for my current build of a Model 88 in 338 Federal, that will also have a full length stock. It will be equipped with open sights for close quarters brush work and bear watch.

The other point made regarding detachable magazines that has great merit, was where you can exchange magazines while still having a round in the chamber in the event of dire circumstances. You will not be caught with an empty rifle, if practiced properly.

 

[PJGunner]

Sorry to tell you gunner. You should only need one shot. One shot.

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To be perfectly frank, most of the time when I hunted in the past the hunts were done with a Ruger #1 single shot rifle chambered to various cartridges. Most of the time second shots were not needed but I still practiced at the range to be able to take a quick second shot should it be required. Probably 9 times out of 10 is was not needed but I was prepared.
My lst five or six elk hunts were done with a bolt action Mauser in .35 Whelen, mostly because the ranch I hunted along with the outfitter did not allow the use of single loaders. :x Most elk were taken with the first shot, anchored and going nowhere. A couple required a finisher but we unable to get away. Only two were standing shots, the rest either running or walking rapidly out of the area into cover.
I agree one should only need one shot but sometimes stuff happens.
I would much rather face an angry Brown Bear with my .35 Whelen and it's 5 shots that with my Ruger #1 in .416 Rigby. I'm sure the Rigby would work just fine but sometimes things don't always go as planned. :lol:
Paul B.

 

[Dwh7271]

That it I hunted last year I did not have a good shot so I didn't take one.I decide what shot I take. And to show you pics. To prove I do as I preach. No I won't. I've been hunting for a long time my grandfather and father taught me how to hunt and do it very well.they also said don't be cruel if you think you can't kill the animal on your first shot don't take it
So there have been seasons with no kill but that is ok cause is am a hunter.

After being on this site for a while I think you will find that the majority of posters are also hunters and fine shots besides. Probably quite a few are exceptional. I know some of them personally and consider them friends and sportsmen of high moral character, along with being individuals I would be pleased to share a meal or camp with.
No one is disputing any of the statements you have made and if you are able to do as you posted then you are probably a fine shot also.
Also the majority of people on this site conduct themselves as gentlemen and ladies which means a certain level of discourse is encouraged.
The lady that started this post is a friend of mine also. I would be very distressed were she insulted or impugned.
I am pleased you have chosen to join in on this site and thought perhaps as you are new a quick overview of our normal modes of conversation might be in order.
Good luck in your future hunts and welcome!

 

[ramiroh146]

I hear you I use five round rifles. I'm always prepared
I even take my 45 long.but I've always practice a lot I've even taken second place long range shooting in law enforcement competitions.I understand being prepared. Be safe

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[hseII]

Hello,
I'm debating a similar issue:

1. 35 Whelen
2. 358 Winchester
3. 338-06 AI

All around bigger than a 30 cal to handle anything in NA.

I hand load.

I'm not opposed to a 338WM, but I'm reading that there are better choices.

The platform will probably be some old bolt action: a pre '64 Mod 70, etc...

22-26" barrel.

Thanks

 

[Dwh7271]

They're all fine cartridges.
At the risk of being shunned by all these Whelen types :grin:, I'm a 338-06 guy. Just ended up working out that way. I liked the idea at the time of a hair better BC and also figured there wasn't a lot going to walk away from a well placed 210 PT or 225 AB.
With that said, I would have no issue with either of the others you mention. If it were going to be a lever, then the 358 would do very well. A bolt, then the Whelen or 338-06. I really don't think the critters could tell the difference.

 

[Dwh7271]

Although the appeal of a Model 71 does tempt me..... :grin:

 

[gerry]

Hello,
I'm debating a similar issue:

1. 35 Whelen
2. 358 Winchester
3. 338-06 AI

All around bigger than a 30 cal to handle anything in NA.

I hand load.

I'm not opposed to a 338WM, but I'm reading that there are better choices.

The platform will probably be some old bolt action: a pre '64 Mod 70, etc...

22-26" barrel.

Thanks

Out of that list I would look at the 35 Whelen and 338 Win Mag first, both are powerful and you can find factory ammo if needed. The 338 WM could be loaded with a slightly faster powder and duplicate 338-06 AI speeds and recoil. Not a bad choice on that list though..........

 

[SJB358]

I'm in Gerrys camp here. 35 Whelen or 338 Win Mag... both of them work very well for me.

Not a thing wrong with a 338-06 either but the Whelen is a great cartridge that has been very easy to work with. Good luck.

 

[truck driver]

Yep I'm in the 35 Whelen camp also. I almost went with the 338-06 but saw where the Whelen would push the same weight bullet faster and went with it instead.

 

[Blkram]

Gerry,

I have found talking to several guys over the past 10 years that I am getting the exact same performance out of my 338-06 as they are getting with their AI versions.

While the AI version has its "cool" factor, I do intend to take this rifle to Africa when I go and wanted to be able to have the factory loaded ammo for it. Which it shoots the Wby 210 Partition ammo at a chronographed 2750 fps producing 1/2" groups. (Duplicates Wby specifications for this ammo)

In my handloads I am using Wby brass and 62 grains of H414, WLR primer, with the 215 gr SGK and getting 1/2" groups at a chronographed 2751 fps out of a 22" barrel.

At 300 yards, due to the higher BC of the 215 SGK over the 210 Partition out of the 338 Win Mag, the retained energy is greater than that of the Magnum. Sierra puts a thicker jacket on the 338 SGK for better penetration and controlled expansion at Magnum velocities.

I like that the rifle holds 5 cartridges and produces less felt recoil than the Magnum. And as much as I like my 358 Win, and respect the 35 Whelen, due to my experience on large game (elk, moose, bison and grizzly bear) with the 338 WM, I do not feel undergunned with the 338-06.

I found this to be all very interesting, and while I still want to replace the Magnum, I do not need to.