Greetings. I would like to start reloading for the 45-70. I have a 1886 Winchester {Mfg. 1912} in excellent condition and would like to keep it that way but I would also like a great shooter also. Lots of conflicting data out there so here I am. I do not have the equipment to cast my own bullets but see that might be a viable route to follow. I see lots of cast bullets available, gas checks etc Most bullets I see fall into the 300 to 350 g range which seems fine for my purposes. Any and all thoughts are appreciated. Newysan Don't trust a government that does not trust you to own a gun.
45-70 loads
- Thread starter Newysan
- Start date
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
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You might want to check out some of the .45/70 bullet tests here:
viewforum.php?f=63
The .45/70 is a joy to load and shoot. I recommend taking a hard look at the different loads at Hodgdon's on-line site, as well as the various printed manuals. Typically the loads are split into two or three power levels for different strength rifles, often referred to as "Trapdoor" "Levergun" and "Ruger Number One" level loads. The loads for the old Trapdoor Springfields are very mild and pleasant to shoot, yet fully capable of taking game at reasonable ranges. Some of the top loads in the "levergun" category are max for new production Marlin 1895 rifles and WILL get your attention when you touch 'em off. Like 400 gr jacketed bullets at 2,000 fps... Ouch. Then there's the RUGER NUMBER ONE loads - those shouldn't be used in anything else, except converted bolt action Mausers. They're stout...
A good cast bullet, 300 - 405 grains, and a mild charge of powder, will provide much fun, and satisfyingly big holes in target.
BTW - you might want to try some 405 gr Remington factory ammo. It's loaded to very mild specs and should work fine from your rifle. Pleasant to shoot at about 1300 fps, yet effective on game.
Regards, Guy
viewforum.php?f=63
The .45/70 is a joy to load and shoot. I recommend taking a hard look at the different loads at Hodgdon's on-line site, as well as the various printed manuals. Typically the loads are split into two or three power levels for different strength rifles, often referred to as "Trapdoor" "Levergun" and "Ruger Number One" level loads. The loads for the old Trapdoor Springfields are very mild and pleasant to shoot, yet fully capable of taking game at reasonable ranges. Some of the top loads in the "levergun" category are max for new production Marlin 1895 rifles and WILL get your attention when you touch 'em off. Like 400 gr jacketed bullets at 2,000 fps... Ouch. Then there's the RUGER NUMBER ONE loads - those shouldn't be used in anything else, except converted bolt action Mausers. They're stout...
A good cast bullet, 300 - 405 grains, and a mild charge of powder, will provide much fun, and satisfyingly big holes in target.
BTW - you might want to try some 405 gr Remington factory ammo. It's loaded to very mild specs and should work fine from your rifle. Pleasant to shoot at about 1300 fps, yet effective on game.
Regards, Guy
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,402
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One of the newer Model 86s is on my radar for acquisition. It will be an excellent moose/elk rifle at modest ranges.
- Thread starter
- #4
An interesting phenomena with 45-70 brass. My books all say case length 2.105 Elmer, Sierra, Nosler. Hornady says 2.035 {3rd edition}. New WW brass is 2.098 and the new Hornady Lever pointy stuff brass is 2.035 . Seems odd. Somebody else told me Remington brass has a cannelure that limits how far a bullet {deep} can be seated. The mine is indeed getting darker the deeper I dig. Any thoughts? Newysan
- Nov 4, 2004
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H322 has worked very well for me with 300 gr ns 405 gr bullets in my Marlin 1895G.
The 45-70 shoots big heavy bullets and they do not have to go fast to be effective.
JD338
The 45-70 shoots big heavy bullets and they do not have to go fast to be effective.
JD338
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
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When loading the Flex-Tip, the case must be trimmed more than for other bullets to feed properly through a lever action rifle. It sounds as if Hornady assumes you will be loading the FTX in this case.
Mike, You are right.
Having said that, I will never understand why Hornady "modified" a SAAMI case to accomodate their bullet. The Hornady case would be fine I guess for loading, so long as you load only the 325 gr Flex Tip bullets.
My 45-70 shoots the Nosler 300 gr BST at 2100 fps and it shoots plenty flat to 200 yds.
JD338
Mike, You are right.
Having said that, I will never understand why Hornady "modified" a SAAMI case to accomodate their bullet. The Hornady case would be fine I guess for loading, so long as you load only the 325 gr Flex Tip bullets.
My 45-70 shoots the Nosler 300 gr BST at 2100 fps and it shoots plenty flat to 200 yds.
JD338
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,789
- 6,036
Thoughts? Don't make it more complicated than necessary. It's pretty straightforward.
Hornady complicated the brass issue a few years ago when they introduced their pointy-bullet loads which use the shorter Hornady brass. If you want to run the pointy Hornady bullets, use their shorter brass.
Otherwise, all the brass is useful for conventional lead or jacketed bullets. There is some variation in case capacity, but no more than is normal for other large cartridges. The Remington brass flattens out real good after being shot once and resized. It is a non-issue. Besides - you really want to run a bullet longer than 405 grains? :grin:
Win, Rem, or Federal brass - or Starline - they're all decent, and all will work fine.
H322, Reloader 7, IMR 3031, H4198 - all are good.
I'd recommend trying some factory ammo - like the factory loaded Rem 405 gr JSP stuff - to see what it is all about, then going from there. Why not start handloading with either the Rem 405 or the Speer 400 gr JSP? They're good bullets and can be used to essentially duplicate factory ammo. Not a bad place to start...
Regards, Guy
Hornady complicated the brass issue a few years ago when they introduced their pointy-bullet loads which use the shorter Hornady brass. If you want to run the pointy Hornady bullets, use their shorter brass.
Otherwise, all the brass is useful for conventional lead or jacketed bullets. There is some variation in case capacity, but no more than is normal for other large cartridges. The Remington brass flattens out real good after being shot once and resized. It is a non-issue. Besides - you really want to run a bullet longer than 405 grains? :grin:
Win, Rem, or Federal brass - or Starline - they're all decent, and all will work fine.
H322, Reloader 7, IMR 3031, H4198 - all are good.
I'd recommend trying some factory ammo - like the factory loaded Rem 405 gr JSP stuff - to see what it is all about, then going from there. Why not start handloading with either the Rem 405 or the Speer 400 gr JSP? They're good bullets and can be used to essentially duplicate factory ammo. Not a bad place to start...
Regards, Guy
- Thread starter
- #8
Man, congrats on the 45-70! Like the others said, there is a ton of GREAT data out there for them. Jim is a huge fan of H322, I used alot of H4198 and IMR4198. Both of those worked really well for me. I have since switched to RL7 for just about everything from 300-420 grains of bullet! It works nicely, less pressure than the others it seems and is very accurate.
Also, while I used WW cases for quite awhile, starting again, I would run Starline. I picked up my first bag of them, they are perfect, no dented necks, it is thicker than WW brass and the price cannot be beat. It is the Nosler case for the 45-70 in my book. I love it.
I would look around 40 grains of RL7 with the Starline brass with a 400 grain'ish bullet. Right around 1700 FPS and it should be a great shooting combo.
If your shooting cast, there are some really nice bullets out there, but buying them from Beartooth is a GREAT option. They are the nicest I have purchased thus far. The only better ones came from a forum member here, that casted them for me.
Good luck with it. I don't see you having any issues loading for this round. It is very straight forward and most loads are really accurate, from mild to wild. Your 1886 will take the wild loads, but I am not too sure our bodies would like them for too long.
I shot Guys recipe with the 425 Piledriver Jr around 1900FPS and I thought I had stepped into the ring with a prize fighter! They were ultra accurate, but down around 1800 they were much nicer to shoot and I wouldn't want to tangle with the animal that could tell the difference...
Also, while I used WW cases for quite awhile, starting again, I would run Starline. I picked up my first bag of them, they are perfect, no dented necks, it is thicker than WW brass and the price cannot be beat. It is the Nosler case for the 45-70 in my book. I love it.
I would look around 40 grains of RL7 with the Starline brass with a 400 grain'ish bullet. Right around 1700 FPS and it should be a great shooting combo.
If your shooting cast, there are some really nice bullets out there, but buying them from Beartooth is a GREAT option. They are the nicest I have purchased thus far. The only better ones came from a forum member here, that casted them for me.
Good luck with it. I don't see you having any issues loading for this round. It is very straight forward and most loads are really accurate, from mild to wild. Your 1886 will take the wild loads, but I am not too sure our bodies would like them for too long.
I shot Guys recipe with the 425 Piledriver Jr around 1900FPS and I thought I had stepped into the ring with a prize fighter! They were ultra accurate, but down around 1800 they were much nicer to shoot and I wouldn't want to tangle with the animal that could tell the difference...
HeathSexton
Handloader
- May 12, 2006
- 1,207
- 35
28.0grs IMR-sr4759
Starline brass
405gr Lasercast
1 fouler and then I shot 5, the same load is just as accurate with 300gr bullets too. I shot some of them last week and it just wadded them up too. Easy on the shoulder also. 45-47grs RL7 with 350's and 59.0grs H4895 + 350's = very accurate and hard hitting. The H4895 load runs 1922fps and MOA from my 18" guide gun.
Starline brass
405gr Lasercast
1 fouler and then I shot 5, the same load is just as accurate with 300gr bullets too. I shot some of them last week and it just wadded them up too. Easy on the shoulder also. 45-47grs RL7 with 350's and 59.0grs H4895 + 350's = very accurate and hard hitting. The H4895 load runs 1922fps and MOA from my 18" guide gun.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
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That group will put a grin on the chin of the most jaded shooter, Heath.
257 Ackley
Handloader
- Nov 25, 2008
- 1,763
- 0
Great caliber and I am jealous of your rifle in an original Winchester. I have a 1886 manufactured 2001 in Japan. The Starline brass seems to work well and most of my shooting has been done with 350 grain cast bullets traveling in the 1700fps range. My application with this combo is for 100 yard and closer shots in fairly densely wooded areas, so I'm not interested in having the full-boat loads that some of the others on this site shoot at longer distances with scopes (Brian and Scott, you are guilty as charged). That, and I don't have dental insurance anymore and can't afford having fillings replaced anymore :wink: .
I must have been out of the loop worse than I thought having not posted on this yet.
Anyhow be that as it may, if you like to shoot your .45-70 a lot, then casting your own is the best way to keep your cost down. If you are looking to cast for yourself, may I suggest getting in touch Tom at Accurate Molds, http://www.accuratemolds.com/
He will need some slug measurements most likely, ( I'd slug the throat and leade myself) but his work is second to none, and a fair price imo.
And I would do it in brass.
If I wanted a do it all type, the weight would be in the 400-425 gr. range. Take like an AM mold and have Tom do two different weights. Then I would look at a 350 and 450 gr., Load them up to about 15-1600 fps, and you got any animal covered on the continent. Then again, I know a number of other's, that stay in 12-1400 fps range as well. They always seem to have game meat in the freezer.
At a 139 yrs old, it's still very versatile, no matter how you load it!
Anyhow be that as it may, if you like to shoot your .45-70 a lot, then casting your own is the best way to keep your cost down. If you are looking to cast for yourself, may I suggest getting in touch Tom at Accurate Molds, http://www.accuratemolds.com/
He will need some slug measurements most likely, ( I'd slug the throat and leade myself) but his work is second to none, and a fair price imo.
And I would do it in brass.
If I wanted a do it all type, the weight would be in the 400-425 gr. range. Take like an AM mold and have Tom do two different weights. Then I would look at a 350 and 450 gr., Load them up to about 15-1600 fps, and you got any animal covered on the continent. Then again, I know a number of other's, that stay in 12-1400 fps range as well. They always seem to have game meat in the freezer.
At a 139 yrs old, it's still very versatile, no matter how you load it!
Woodycreek
Handloader
- Aug 2, 2007
- 2,240
- 0
I really like the 300 grain bullets for deer hunting in the thick stuff of Va. More than enough bullet for Whitetails and still moving around 2200-2350 depending on what powder i use. Currently using Win brass and H4198. I hope to get switched over to Starline brass and RL-7 before hunting season.
The thick stuff.
this was a recovered 300gr BST out of a small deer shot in the brisket at less than 50 yards.
the damage
The thick stuff.
this was a recovered 300gr BST out of a small deer shot in the brisket at less than 50 yards.
the damage
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,402
- 6,213
That looks pretty open, Brian. Still, the 45-70 should ensure that nothing runs too far through the trees.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,402
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Oh, yeah, those will strike a mighty blow, Dave. Refresh my memory, what weights are those?
Mike,,,,,The first pic is from the BRP & AM mold(s). right and left are BRP's 350 and 465 grn.. With the middle two AM's, throwing 405 and 470 grs.
The second pic is one of the AM's throwing 2 calibers,,,, .454 & .460 being 360 and 470 grs. respectively.
I have another like it that throws .454/320 gr. and .460/405 gr..
The bottom two are BRP three weights .462" weighing 350, 425, and 465 gr.. Tom at AM can alter to the rifle needs as for diameters.
The BRP is set up more for,,,it's big enough to size down to throat. But a good mold no longer to be had.
The am's are setup just enough sizing to crimp the checks. Difference in diameter is due to two different alloy. Actually there is only .0005" difference,,,not sure spe'd that tight isn't really needed????????
Oh, and the BRP is made of Aluminum, whereas the AM molds are brass. I really like the brass.Once you get them broke in, the brass cast better imo.
Glad those few shoot well for you Scotty. Seems your and my barrels were close enough in wants.
The second pic is one of the AM's throwing 2 calibers,,,, .454 & .460 being 360 and 470 grs. respectively.
I have another like it that throws .454/320 gr. and .460/405 gr..
The bottom two are BRP three weights .462" weighing 350, 425, and 465 gr.. Tom at AM can alter to the rifle needs as for diameters.
The BRP is set up more for,,,it's big enough to size down to throat. But a good mold no longer to be had.
The am's are setup just enough sizing to crimp the checks. Difference in diameter is due to two different alloy. Actually there is only .0005" difference,,,not sure spe'd that tight isn't really needed????????
Oh, and the BRP is made of Aluminum, whereas the AM molds are brass. I really like the brass.Once you get them broke in, the brass cast better imo.
Glad those few shoot well for you Scotty. Seems your and my barrels were close enough in wants.
