Expander & Factory Crimp Dies

[ElmerThud]

Does anyone use these two (Dies) additional operations when loading rifle rounds for hunting?
and if so, are there some benefits from utilising the additional time and effort in terms of more consistent and accurate ammunition?

I'd be very interested to know from those with experience of using the above.
ATB, ET

 

[rick smith]

If you are asking about the expander ball in a regular FL die, I use them when I FL or PFL. Only time I crimp Is for rounds such as the 30/30 or 44Mag. It is not always necessary to crimp.Rick.

 

[steve4102]

I have a couple Lyman "M" expander dies I use for rifles.
For my 223/5.56 AR, I FL size in My Forster die with the expander removed, then I run the case though the "M" die. This helps keep bullet runout to a minimum. I finish the round off with a trip through the Lee Factory Crimp die. This helps secure the bullet and improves accuracy.

 

[Kodiak]

Most lever action rifles require a crimp of sorts, but the single-shots and bolt-guns (mostly) don't. If you do need to crimp, as mentioned, the Lee factory crimp is a good tool.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I would use them in a straight pistol case which is intended for a rifle (i.e. .44 Magnum).

 

[1Shot]

I have found that on rifles like old military bolt actions, which most have very long throats, I load the rounds COAL as long as will function through the magazine and then use the LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE on them. I have done a lot of testing and in almost every case the use of the LEE Factory Crimp Die made the ammo more accurate. I also use the LEE Factory Crimp Die on ALL my semi-auto ammo for rifles and the LEE CARBIDE FACTORY CRIMP DIE on all my semi-auto pistol ammo. They run like water down a 6" pipe.

With the LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE you do not have to have a crimping groove on the bullet. It will make it's own and contrary to many peoples belief IT DOES NOT DESTROY THE ACCURACY OF A MATCH BULLET. Proof is from all those vintage military rifle shooting matches that I used to win by shooting the pants off the "anal bench rest shooters" that thought they knew how to load accurate ammo and shoot a rifle well. :mrgreen:

For my modern rifles that don't have long throats I don't use any crimp die because I can get the bullet close enough to the lands to adjust my seating depth to get the proper jump for the best accuracy and still have enough bullet in the neck of the case to hold it well and it will still work through the magazine.

 

[ElmerThud]

I think Steve4102 & 1shot are covering my query somewhat.

I've heard it said that using a Lee expander die & after bullet seating, placing a 'light' crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp die, will aid consistency and accuracy by maintaining neck tension and lowering run-out on loaded rounds.

In thirty years of reloading, I only ever crimped revolver ammo. and never gave a thought to crimping my rifle loads until recently on another forum the subject was discussed.

Now I knew with an extended OAL on my .25-06 rounds I ran a risk of excessive run-out, but now have it in my head I should check out these two dies, to see if I could determine more consistency and as a result some additional accuracy benefit.
The question really is, does this additional benefit exist by the use of two additional operations ?
Comments please?
ATB, ET

 

[FOTIS]

In All my levers.

 

[Oldtrader3]

ET, I use Forster Bench Rest bullet seating dies now which has largely eliminated worrying about TIR (runout) in my loads.

 

[woods]

What kind of "expander" die are you talking about? Wouldn't be the Lee Collet Neck Sizer would it?

 

[ElmerThud]

Thanks OT3. I can check out the Forster BR seating die. I already do have the RCBS/Huntington competition seating die, but still got run-out problems. I then 'adopted' the cartridge rotation procedure while seating a bullet and believe doing so has helped reduce the number of rounds I produce with the problem.

It certainly seems so as I get fewer 'flyers' for no apparent reason. What I'm trying to achieve is to eliminate the problem altogether. I believe I've done all I can in setting up my F/L sizing die correctly and the seating die.

Maybe I've gone as far as I can with this & the two Lee dies I mention can make only a marginal difference or none at all. If I can get hold of the Forster BR seating die to try I'll give it a whirl.

What I'm not going to do is buy a concentricity guage & check every round, then dismantle & re-make the round if it's 'out of tolerance'. What I do want to do, is ensure I can trust with some reliability each and every round I do make. I don't want to chase too many 'demons' here, but find 'flyers' frustrating. ATB, ET

 

[steve4102]

I've heard it said that using a Lee expander die & after bullet seating, placing a 'light' crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp die, will aid consistency and accuracy by maintaining neck tension and lowering run-out on loaded rounds.

The Lee expander die is a different animal that the Lyman "M" die that I use. The Lee die is basically a flaring tool with a cone shaped plug that flares the case mouth.
The Lyman "M" expands the entire neck similar to the plug in your sizing die and can apply a slight flare to the case mouth.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/114800 ... 57-roberts

I remove the expander from my sizing die and then expand it with the "M" die, this reduces bullet runout for me. With the Lee die you will only get a flare and not a neck epander.

For your bolt action 25-06 you could try reducing runout with the Lee Collet Neck sizing die. These are simple and effective neck sizing dies and produce very concentric ammo.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/573761 ... -remington

 

[1Shot]

I have been loading for a really long time and shooting even longer and I can tell you that most of those "flyers" are not from bullet run out it is caused by the shooter. Inconsistent shooting position, grip pressure, trigger squeeze etc. What I gained from the use of the LEE factory crimp die was tighter groups. They were consistent in roundness but got clustered closer together by using the LEE factory crimp.

I also think that you are confusing the Lee COLLET sizing die with what is normally called an expanding die that is used for loading cast bullets in rifle and used to expand the neck for pistol bullets.

The LEE collet die is just a neck sizer die.

 

[ElmerThud]

OK 1shot, I hear what you're saying & understand - but I don't agree with you with regard to the flyers.
& Steve4102, - I clearly understand exactly what the Lee Expander die is, but yes, it is better described perhaps as a mouth flaring die.
The procedure you use is however interesting and could easily be the way to go...but, as I already have the Lee expander die, I thought adding the 'factory crimp' might go some way toward helping rather than hindering.
My rifle by the way is not a bolt action. It is a single shot, break action.

For interest OT3, I just priced the Forster 'Ultra' seating die here in the UK....it's £86 Stirling - that's $118.70....but it does appear to be rather superior to my Huntington/RCBS die. ATB, ET

 

[steve4102]

OK, got it. By all means give the Lee Factory Crimp die a shot. No pun intended. It may indeed improve your accuracy as it does for me. Just don't over do it. To much crimp will decrease accuracy. Start with a light crimp and work up to more crimp gradually.

 

[rick smith]

Elmer, the best way to fix runout is first finding where it occurs. You assume it is in the bullet seating operation but it could be in various stages of the loading/shooting process and you need to find out where. Best way is a concentricity gauge. I have proven to myself the rotating the case and seating does very little at best. The expander ball in the FL die is a major cause of runout. That is usually easily corrected. If the neck in your chamber is not concentric, neither will be the fired cases. I check a fired case neck for concentricity. Only have to do a few cases to verify. Check a sized case without the expander ball, check another with the expander ball in place. If all produce 0.000-0.001 in runout, then check the seated bullet. Before you can fix the problem you need to find where it is happening. Could be the die or press or neck thickness variations. Or if you have too much tension seating can cause runout. My normal die set for bottle necked cases is a Redding body die, Redding Type-S neck bushing die and either a Forster Ultra seater or the Redding competition die. I use a Forster Co-Ax press. I use a concentricity gauge when I initially set my dies and spot check loaded rounds. I load for several shooters that will be at Camp Perry again this year. I loaded 200 rounds of 30/06 for one of the shooters last year, we spot check about 10% of the loads for concentricity and the worst was 0.001. He knows the rounds are correct.Rick.

 

[ElmerThud]

Thanks for the input you guys.
I have checked the set-up of my F/L sizing die carefully each time I use it, including concentricity of the re-sized cases, also the concentricity of fired cases.
I am certain I've set the F/L expander ball so that it's also as centrally located as possible, (Done this by centralising the case in the die & locking down the de-cap/expander rod with the expander in the case neck at the 'withdrawing' stage) showing for all practical purposes no run-out between case neck & case body.

As I mentioned earlier, my rounds have the bullet (Nosler 110gn AccuBond) seated to a COL of 3.393" (.045" from lands) and the run-out I have found is down to bullet seating.
I just want to do all I can to ensure each round is as correct, consistent & accurate as I can make it in the first instance, so doing all I can to achieve this is the reason for my initial question.
Do these two dies: Lee Expander & Factory Crimp Dies, really aid this objective... the answers appear to be that they do.

 

[steve4102]

Lee Expander & Factory Crimp Dies, really aid this objective... the answers appear to be that they do.

The answer is "They can". They are not magic and cure-alls. You may find magic, you may not.

 

[ElmerThud]

ET, I use Forster Bench Rest bullet seating dies now which has largely eliminated worrying about TIR (runout) in my loads.

Hi OT3, as I said in this thread, I have the RCBS Competition seating die. You mention the Forster BR die you use.
In your opinion, would I benefit by changing and using a Forster 'Ultra' Competition die instead?
Is that the same type of seating die as the BR die you mention?
Cheers, ET

 

[ElmerThud]

Lee Expander & Factory Crimp Dies, really aid this objective... the answers appear to be that they do.

The answer is "They can". They are not magic and cure-alls. You may find magic, you may not.

Thanks Steve.