Expander & Factory Crimp Dies

[steve4102]

ET, I use Forster Bench Rest bullet seating dies now which has largely eliminated worrying about TIR (runout) in my loads.

Hi OT3, as I said in this thread, I have the RCBS Competition seating die. You mention the Forster BR die you use.
In your opinion, would I benefit by changing and using a Forster 'Ultra' Competition die instead?
Is that the same type of seating die as the BR die you mention?
Cheers, ET

No, probably not. Stick with your RCBS Comp seating die. The grass is not always greener!

 

[ElmerThud]

No, probably not. Stick with your RCBS Comp seating die. The grass is not always greener!

I'd agree, no it probably isn't greener.......but it's worth finding out what others think.
Perhaps I'm chasing a demon too far. Cheers, ATB

 

[Oldtrader3]

Elmer, I think that the Ultra Competition is maybe too much of a good thing but I do know how badly you want to make the highest quality ammunition? Besides, sometimes you can just turn the cartridge 180* in the seater and reset the bullet again to eliminate some of the TIR.

For hunting ammunition, anything less than 0.002 inch changes in TIR probably does not make much difference in hunting accuracy anyhow. Die dimensional repeatability is probably more important.

 

[ElmerThud]

Hi OT3, yes, this is of course for hunting ammunition. I noticed I got occasional 'flyers' & couldn't understand why this should be. A friend helped out with a concentricity guage and we discovered around 5% of the ammunition I'd made exceeded .002" and was as much as .008" adrift.
At that stage, I didn't know if it was just the case re-sizing, or the bullet seating that was the problem.

I checked several fired cases for concentricity and found them easily inside .0005". I then checked the setup of my F/L re-sizing die & made some changes. I F/L re-sized cases then checked concentricity and was pleased to note nothing greater than .001"....I also now rotate bullets while seating, i.e. partially seat then rotate 90-180 deg. before finally seating the bullet.

The difference these actions made was self evident, but, a number of people have said utilising the two Lee dies may significantly aid the performance of the finished cartridge when fired. So, I thought I'd investigate the 'thinking from across the pond'.

I have the Nosler 110gn AB from my rifle producing ragged holes at 100yds. MV is chrono'd at avg. 3197fps
But the ES may vary between 38-52fps. I'm told using these two dies could narrow that somewhat.
When all is said & done, I have not in the last ten years had any live quarry survive my first shot (touching wood now) and the rounds I now produce appear to be perfectly fine. I'm just 'playing' to see if I can get them better Cheers, ET

 

[BeeTee]

A couple of ideas... 1- All cases must be trimmed to the exact same length for a crimper to produce consistency in a batch of loaded rounds (that's why I try to avoid crimping). Crimping should be done in a separate operation. 2- I began cleaning the inside of the case necks (dry brass or nylon brush in a drill) to help produce more consistent inside case neck expanding effort and bullet seating. Some inside case necks I even polish. The difference in bullet seating is quite noticeable. All fired cases are run through the corn cob vibratory polisher for several hours after inside neck cleaning but before resizing. BT

 

[ElmerThud]

Points noted BeeTee. Thanks for the input. ATB ET

 

[rick smith]

One thing not mentioned so far is the fit of the bullet in the seating stem. I ran into that problem with Berger VLDs and Match Kings. The tip of the bullet was making firm contact in the bottom of the stem. The outer edge of the stem should rest on the ogive of the bullet without the tip touching in the bottom. Worth a look.Rick.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Hi ET, it sounds as though you more than adequately understand the principles at work and do not need my meddling (smile). The desired outcome is exactly that which you stated on TIR control. If you can kill any game that is within reasonable range DRT and do it with one well placed shot, repeatably, over several decades, you are well in control of the concept and do not need my meddling, feeble attempt at assistance.

These tricks of the trade though, have helped me as well to quickly kill the last 40 or so deer which I have shot and killed over a ten year period with one shot apiece, with my .270 Winchester, Model 70. Once you most certainly have this degree of control of the process and have mastered the process to its applicable end, with this level of expertise, you are certainly fully in control. Carry on! :grin:

 

[ElmerThud]

I'll take a look at that in the seating die Rick. I should see quite easily in my RCBS die what the contact is like of the stem to bullet. Hadn't thought of that aspect! Cheers.

@ OT3...your comments are well accepted & appreciated. Indeed, as are those of the others contributing with constructive thoughts. Maintaining a good level of consistency is what it's all about and the 'flyers' bugged me.
They were never so far away as to cause a problem with a kill at 100 yds, but I could easily have a shot fail at 250 yds. That wouldn't be acceptable and fortunately never occurred.

It took some time to develop the 110gn AB load for my rifle & part of the problem was 'flyers' for no apparent reason. Scotty had helped significantly with some data, but I still had to find out why the consistency of the load was changeable. Reading and conversation with others took me down the concentricity road. To me, this seemed like bench rest territory rather than hunting, then someone suggested the inclusion of using these two Lee dies could change matters for the better & I though 'give it a go'.
Anyway, .25-06 isn't a popular cartridge over here and while waiting for the crimp die to arrive, a thread with consideration from you guys may help too. Whether or not a seating die change might help also cropped up, but I'm not yet convinced on that aspect.
Meantime I wait for the crimp die before next visiting the range. Happy days.

 

[rick smith]

You mentioned that you are shooting a break action rifle. The pin that joins the action with the stock could be the source of your fliers. I have seen several T/Cs benefit from an after market pin. Don't know what rifle you have but more food for thought. Rick.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Rick, I believe that Elmer shoots a Blazer, not quite the same design as a T/C.

Elmer I have had a fair amount of issues with the AccuBond bullet throwing an occasional flyer in a couple, not all, of the calibers that I had tried them in. I am still working on my .257 Roberts and just really began the testing of the 110 AccuBond bullet in that caliber. So far, I have not gotten any groups under 2 inches with either factory loads or with Hybrid 100 V handloads and the 110 AccuBond but that is one powder.

I have just started with the reloading for my free bored .257 Roberts and am in no way ready to say anything one way or the other about how well this bullet will shoot. To date, I have had excellent luck with the 85 grain Ballistic Tip and with the 100 grain Partition bullet. Both bullets have the ability to shoot nearly 1/2 MOA groups on a good day in my FN/Herstal custom rifle. Now that I have new glasses, I will set about serious load development for the 110 AccuBond as my favored bullet, and will keep you posted of any worth repeating results of testing. Good luck with yours as well.

 

[ElmerThud]

Thanks for that OT3 & best of luck with your 110gnAB load development. It took me a while to get the load recipe & seating depth sorted out & I had excellent help from Scotty.
As much as getting the accuracy, I also wanted as much MV as I could get and my success is down to info from you guys on here as much as anything else.
I finally ended up with the bullet seated .045" from the lands and great accuracy now. 1/4" MOA is pretty easy at the bench & the bullet performance on deer is excellent. I had three hinds down last November with excellent blood trails (were they required) from the exit wounds.
The superheated blood mist from bullet exit was an unexpected surprise from the hind hit at 120yds.
If you can get the bullet to work in your rifle, I'm sure you'll be happy.

@ Rick, as OT3 says, I use a K95 single shot rifle, it comes apart just like a shotgun.
Cheers, ATB ET.

 

[rick smith]

Nice set up and the wood is great. Don't see any of those in my part of the country.Rick.

 

[SJB358]

Great pic of an awesome rifle and horns! What a sweet looking rifle!

 

[ElmerThud]

Thanks for your kind comments guys.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Late as usual but great looking and shooting rifle, ET! Nice stag skull collection as well!

 

[ElmerThud]

I can't work out if you're up early, or late getting to your bed OT3 ?????? !! :? Cheers mate.

That pic was taken a couple of years ago, but I am really really looking forward to late September/early October when I shall go to Scotland stag hunting. I missed out last year & hadn't 'booked' myself in while waiting for some surgery that kept getting postponed. Now it's done and I'm free and clear for hunting, once again using the 110gn AB's that I first used in 'anger' last Nov.
Looking forward to it sooooo much. ATB

 

[Oldtrader3]

Patience ET, I am early to rise and late to bed! That is what happens when you get old and can't sleep!

I am working on loads for the .257 Roberts and will find a load, I am sure. I will let you get back to your life!

 

[ElmerThud]

Patience ET, I am early to rise and late to bed! That is what happens when you get old and can't sleep!

Ahhaaa...I know that feeling too! :wink: Best of luck with your .257 load - the recipe will be lurking there somewhere you can be sure.