Berger VLD bullets

[C.Smith]

As someone before me has said try 4350 in the 300 win mag, mine likes "full" loads. . I have not used the berger for game, I know that they shoot well but the performance shown and described here is not what I want. I think about what I would have with a shoulder or quartering away shot and don't want to take the chance. The 180 or 200 grain PT gets the job done every day every time. Just my .02

That right there is the only thing keepting me from using these bullets on elk. I don't hunt with a modern weapon for deer so thats out of the questions. I bought a bunch of bergers thinking I would use them but It makes me too nervous.

Corey

 

[SJB358]

As someone before me has said try 4350 in the 300 win mag, mine likes "full" loads. . I have not used the berger for game, I know that they shoot well but the performance shown and described here is not what I want. I think about what I would have with a shoulder or quartering away shot and don't want to take the chance. The 180 or 200 grain PT gets the job done every day every time. Just my .02

That right there is the only thing keepting me from using these bullets on elk. I don't hunt with a modern weapon for deer so thats out of the questions. I bought a bunch of bergers thinking I would use them but It makes me too nervous.

Corey

Corey, what bullet did you use last year for your elk? The 160gr AB? Just wondering if you had issues with it. Scotty

 

[HTDUCK]

Well RidgeRunner now you got me to wondering.
I've got two boxes of VLDs I plan on trying in my 264 both 130 and 140 grainers.
Might have to rethink that.

I however have had 140 BTs explode like that on Tx whitetails leaving my 280 Rem at 3k fps.
I have also had 150 Sierra Gamekings do the same thing out of a 308 at 2750 fps.

Howard

 

[SJB358]

I was thinking of giving the VLD's a shot in the 264 also, but I figure the AB's will get everything out of the rifle I am capable of. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

I don't know that I'd say that VLDs are liable to explode; but as is true with any cup-and-core bullet, we are asking a lot when we ask for penetration to the vitals though impact velocities may well exceed 3000 fps. I don't doubt that such can kill, but I've seen the density of bone of elk, moose, grizzly and bison. Personally, since I generally shoot these particular game at reasonably close ranges, I opt for a bullet that maintains integrity at higher velocities. I do caution people to consider what they are asking of their bullet and to consider the worst case scenario. When we choose to shoot cup and core bullets, we need to assume responsibility to pass on shots that we know will push the bullet beyond what it was designed to do.

 

[Ridge_Runner]

Well RidgeRunner now you got me to wondering.
I've got two boxes of VLDs I plan on trying in my 264 both 130 and 140 grainers.
Might have to rethink that.

I however have had 140 BTs explode like that on Tx whitetails leaving my 280 Rem at 3k fps.
I have also had 150 Sierra Gamekings do the same thing out of a 308 at 2750 fps.

Howard

how were your BT's packaged? 100 per box? the older ones packaged 100 per box were tender, those packed 50 per box are just a nosler solid base boattail with a polymer tip, I shoot the new 140's at 3550 fps from a 7 mm stw, I stay off heavy bone till past 200 yards and they function well. have taken 19 bucks and a bear with them in the STW once in a while one will not exit but they come close.
I also shoot the 115 gr BT in a 25 wssm at 3K, a better deer round I haven't seen.
RR

 

[HTDUCK]

Well RidgeRunner now you got me to wondering.
I've got two boxes of VLDs I plan on trying in my 264 both 130 and 140 grainers.
Might have to rethink that.

I however have had 140 BTs explode like that on Tx whitetails leaving my 280 Rem at 3k fps.
I have also had 150 Sierra Gamekings do the same thing out of a 308 at 2750 fps.

Howard

how were your BT's packaged? 100 per box? the older ones packaged 100 per box were tender, those packed 50 per box are just a nosler solid base boattail with a polymer tip, I shoot the new 140's at 3550 fps from a 7 mm stw, I stay off heavy bone till past 200 yards and they function well. have taken 19 bucks and a bear with them in the STW once in a while one will not exit but they come close.
I also shoot the 115 gr BT in a 25 wssm at 3K, a better deer round I haven't seen.
RR

Yes they were packaged 100 to the box if I remember correctly.
The 140s out of a 7STW at 3550? Yikes. What happens if you have to take a 50 yard shot? I'd be afraid of that bullet disentegrating (sp?) on impact.

 

[Big Squeeze]

A friend has asked me to put together a load for his Model 70 300 Win Mag using the 185 gr Berger VLD bullet. I am not having much luck using my favorite load of rl-22. What I am finding is that these need to be seated deep to function with the magazine feed and I think that it is putting the bullet to far off the rifling. I ordered a modified 300 case for my OAL gauge to see if this is true but I have not received it yet. Do any of you have experience with these bullets? :?

....................For hunting loads, you begin by seating the VLD bullet out to the max OAL that the magazine will allow while still enabling proper cycling of the bolt. Shoot a 1/2 dozen rounds and check for accuracy.

Repeat again using the same charge and powder with another 1/2 dozen rounds, but with the bullet seated deeper by another 15/1000 ths. Test fire for accuracy.

Repeat again with the bullet seated down another 15/1000ths and test fire. Repeat again reducing the OAL by still another 15/1000ths. Then repeat the process one more time.

Between the first series of loads and the last series, there is about a 60/1000ths OAL difference. And somewhere within that distance will be your rifles preference or sweet spot for best accuracy.

If after using RL22 for all series of loadings as described above, and there is no gain in the accuracy dept, then change your powder all together, or change the RL22 charge and repeat the process again.

Many people report that the Berger VLDs are very accurate when seated well off the rifling. Which seating depth is best, is determined by what the rifle prefers.

I successfully used a 30 cal 190 VLD on my last elk hunt with a good dose of RL17 behind it. MV was about 2840 fps at altitude using my 300 WSM Ruger Frontier compact carbine. With one shot from 328 yards, the 190 VLD not only penetrated the bull`s thick right shoulder bone, but continued on with its usual explosion (like its suppose to do), with bullet fragments penetrating to the opposite side just below the hide. The aftermath internally was a very devastating and wide wound cavity. He collapsed within 4 yards of the hit. Not concerned with any bullet recovery or bullet weight retention. Only concern was just one dead elk along with no tracking as well.

As Berger has told me, they like to see VLD IMPACT speeds on game anywhere from a minimum of 1800 fps up to around the 2800 to 2900 fps mark. Those impact speed #s, fall well within any downrange impact speed generated by a 300 Win or 300 WSM and well within just about any killing shot distances for elk or any other game shooting from either shorter distances or from longer distances.

Tip...If you plan on uisng the hunting VLDs for big game, they`ll do the job. Keep in mind, that it would not be wise to fire at extreme shooting angles. The VLDs are not supposed to penetrate from back to front or the reverse on big game. That`s not what they do. However, with a well placed shot as with any bullet, the VLDs will do their job at shooting angles of 30 degrees or less either quartering to or quartering away which gives a 60 degree angle spread to play with.

Also have 50+ one shot hog kills using the 168 VLD. No tracking required with them either.

 

[Ridge_Runner]

Well RidgeRunner now you got me to wondering.
I've got two boxes of VLDs I plan on trying in my 264 both 130 and 140 grainers.
Might have to rethink that.

I however have had 140 BTs explode like that on Tx whitetails leaving my 280 Rem at 3k fps.
I have also had 150 Sierra Gamekings do the same thing out of a 308 at 2750 fps.

Howard

how were your BT's packaged? 100 per box? the older ones packaged 100 per box were tender, those packed 50 per box are just a nosler solid base boattail with a polymer tip, I shoot the new 140's at 3550 fps from a 7 mm stw, I stay off heavy bone till past 200 yards and they function well. have taken 19 bucks and a bear with them in the STW once in a while one will not exit but they come close.
I also shoot the 115 gr BT in a 25 wssm at 3K, a better deer round I haven't seen.
RR

Yes they were packaged 100 to the box if I remember correctly.
The 140s out of a 7STW at 3550? Yikes. What happens if you have to take a 50 yard shot? I'd be afraid of that bullet disentegrating (sp?) on impact.

they behave well, like I said stay off heavy bone till you get to around 200 yards (they'll kill them but its messy) like I said todays BT's are completely different from the old ones as long as they are 50 to the box.
RR

 

[C.Smith]

As someone before me has said try 4350 in the 300 win mag, mine likes "full" loads. . I have not used the berger for game, I know that they shoot well but the performance shown and described here is not what I want. I think about what I would have with a shoulder or quartering away shot and don't want to take the chance. The 180 or 200 grain PT gets the job done every day every time. Just my .02

That right there is the only thing keepting me from using these bullets on elk. I don't hunt with a modern weapon for deer so thats out of the questions. I bought a bunch of bergers thinking I would use them but It makes me too nervous.

Corey

Corey, what bullet did you use last year for your elk? The 160gr AB? Just wondering if you had issues with it. Scotty

I used the 160 AB out of my 7 Mag, no issues what so ever, quick kill, complete penetration (bow range too). I have about 200 orange box Bergers 168 grain for my 30-06 that I wanted to use a few years ago and could not get myself to use them. As quick as elk come and go I was worried the only shot I would get is an angled shot or less than perfect shot and I know me I would not have taken it with those bullets.

Corey

 

[Greg Nolan]

Just another opinion!
I've never used Berger bullets but the cup and core issues were what drove John Nosler and others to create controlled expansion bullets. We've all seen examples of blow ups and I've had a few outstanding failures with bullets I used to think were great because they blew up in the chest cavity for a perfect DRT experience. I've held off on the vld bullets because I'm a pretty average hunter and most of my shots will be 30 to 300 yards so I figure the odds are I'll get a closer and probably odd angle shot. The vld bullets seem a little too fragile for elk or big mule deer under those circumstances. I like having confidence that the only shot I might get will be within the capibility of the bullet and caliber I shoot. The AccuBond shoots pretty flat.
Greg

 

[C.Smith]

Greg that is a really good point about what drove John Nosler to create the Partition. A bullet that will get the job done rigardles of what is thrown at you.

Corey

 

[cloverleaf]

Ridge,
Im not here to disagree with you..... I just dont have as much faith in any bullet as you do.
"....any bullet should penetrate and exit a whitetail at 500 yards....."

Dad always shot his 7mag with 130 grain speer's. Several of them did not exit a deer and they were ALL dead. I agree that those bullets should not have blown on the shoulder as you pictured. Thats not a deer bullet period. However, at the ranges you are talking I would think it gets harder and harder to predict what that bullet will do. Too many variables..... and they increase by the yard IMO.

No matter, Im not shooting bergers at anything but paper.

 

[rick smith]

There is not a bullet on the market that will please every hunter on every shot. Bergers are not designed to have an exit wound but some of them do exit. If you visit enough of the forums on the web, you will read good and bad on just about any hunting bullet. Most are reporting only what they have read and some that post pictures to support their claim. Now if you have a picture during what part of the deer's death did the bullet fail? Ballistic tips are often the target of bullet failure yet I have killed over 100 whitetails with BTs of various calibers. Started shooting VLDs a few years back and now have killed over 25 deer and a number of hogs with them. They work for me and I will continue to use them. Animals react differently to being shot, some run, some drop on the spot. I had one buck just stand there like nothing had happened. As I put another round in the chamber and was getting the crosshairs settled he just fell over. It would be great if they would all fall at the shot. not going to happen.
Few years back I was doing load development on two different 375 H&Hs for a couple of buddies going after Cape Buffalo. Their PH told them not to use a bullet that would exit. He didn't want to wound another buffalo in the herd. We tested 300gr Nosler partitions vs Swift A-Frames. The Noslers had better accuracy and a lot more penetration. The A-Frames had a better wound channel and less penetration. So the A-Frames went on the hunt with both of them.
Pick your bullet, test it and if not satisfied, change bullets and start over. My favorite deer bullets; Nosler Ballistic Tips, Nosler Solid Base, Sierra BTHP Gamekings and the Berger VLDs. They don't always perform as I would like but that is due to shot angle, size of the animal, distance, etc. I am happy that we have such a selection of bullets to use.Rick.

 

[Guest]

Rick,
I could not agree with you more. You have to match the bullet to the type of hunting you do. Distances shooting and animal you are going after. I'm interested in the Bergers, but it is very limited for me. I think their concept is limited to Long Range and or very open type shots. Anything other than that I would make another bullet selection. While Bergers have been successful in some arenas, I tend to favor a hole being blown through the animal with devastation in between. Noslers offerings provide that choice for me. I've questioned myself how bergers perform at higher velocity levels within close distances. I personally feel their concept makes their bullet fragile to any resistance it would encounter shooting through cover compared to other bullet offerings available. If the bullet were to fail given their concept, there would be little to no blood trail at all to recover the animal. It's definetly a personal preference. I'm grateful we do have choices today.

Attempting to recover an Elk with a possible mishap like that in the High Country is something I'm not willing to risk, especially up close in Black Timber. Just my 2-cents.

Don

 

[Ridge_Runner]

Ridge,
Im not here to disagree with you..... I just dont have as much faith in any bullet as you do.
"....any bullet should penetrate and exit a whitetail at 500 yards....."

Dad always shot his 7mag with 130 grain speer's. Several of them did not exit a deer and they were ALL dead. I agree that those bullets should not have blown on the shoulder as you pictured. Thats not a deer bullet period. However, at the ranges you are talking I would think it gets harder and harder to predict what that bullet will do. Too many variables..... and they increase by the yard IMO.

No matter, Im not shooting bergers at anything but paper.

well CL, what kills bullets is velocity at impact, as the bullets slow down they become more consistant in terminal performance. I've shot high velocity rounds for alot of years at alot of different ranges, with quite a few bullets. at 500 yards, any (other) lead bullet will penetrate a 120# whitetail when no bone is encountered, the accubonds are unstoppable at long range, I've shot 26 deer with them from 307-1350 yards, all exited except one that hit an unseen limb and made an entrance wound you could stick a tennis ball in, made the lungs but I lost the bullet during the field dressing process.
Even in the days before accubonds and my max range was 600 yards, the 140 gr BT always exited when fired from the STW at 3550 fps, even shoulder shot a 180# bear at 80 yards, it exited. you can see in the pic that bullet hit no bone and never made a wound channel into the chest cavity. the match version of the bergers behaves like IMO it should.
RR

edited to add:
even back in the very early days of the BT bullets, I found out that those bullets were very tender, 140's from a 7 mag would suffer massive jacket/core separations on close shots, one season I killed deer at 23, 27 yards, neither hit nothing but a rib, both separated, neither exited, 4 days later shot one at 326, clipped the shoulder going in and still exited, I switched to gamekings for a few years till they revamped the BT's, and they shot so good I went back to them.
RR

 

[.300winmag]

I love Nosler Bullets, I use the in my '06 exclusively. But in my .300 Win. Mag. I'l take the 210 Berger over the AccuBond any day. The Berger shoots much better, it has better ballistics and drops animal in it's tracks like nothing I've ever seen before. I'd have no second thoughts at a quartering away shot on a trophy bull at 600 yards with a Berger.

 

[Stevesdl]

After seeing this post on the VLD and a first hand experience by a hunter in our hunting party this year, I just have to comment. I built this Berger reload for a hunter. This reload was shooting perfect 5/8" at 200 literally every single time throughout the fall before the hunt. I had some doubts regarding the bullet performance and its stated history of inadequate penetration at times. (I really stated this concern but...)

Long story made short. A hunter using custom Berger VLD 210gr handloads out of his expensive custom 300 Win Mag and expensive nightforce scope, shot a buck at less than 60 yards. Muzzle velocity is about 2800 fps. The hunter is a seasoned and experienced hunter with a buck every year. some taken as close as 40 yards and some taken out at the 455 yard uphill distance. All one shot kills.

The monster report of this custom 300 win mag with its custom Berger VLD 210 gr round was authoritative! It was screaming accurate! It was downright king for that one split moment!

Buck was ""DRT"". Yup, get the freezer ready cause this one hunter had venison on the table already. It was a fine shot.. It was calm, cool, and collected with perfection as its name. It was less than 60 yards. It was a no brainer! It was ...........

Wait!!! The buck is back up!!! The buck is running away???
OMG! No blood trail. So many tracks in this area it was apparent the Buck had a family reunion here earlier. Did I say no blood trail? Never got another shot at that buck.

4 witnesses saw the shot, saw the buck go down, saw the buck jump back up and run off.

Everyone has their own likes and opinions. I have mine now.
I did not get a shot this year at any Bull elk but I am confident with my 338 Win Mag and its companion Nosler AB 225 gr reload beauty! :wink:

 

[SJB358]

Great report Steve. It does seem that performance is hit or miss. Not for me. I will take less BC for extra bullet performance. While it is hard to tell what happened, since the deer was not recovered, but it would seem any 210gr bullet should have killed a deer. I managed with 52gr bullets out of my 22-250 a few times. I can't have that kinda doubt wit my bullets. Leaves too much for my brain to mull over. Scotty

 

[FOTIS]

After trying them and after reading upon them I am done with them.

When they work they work great but when they do not..... well I can not accept that.