Berger VLD bullets

[onesonek]

All I know after using a number of others, I always end up back using Nosler Partitions.
I have never had one fail, or do something unexpected in 35+yrs. Although I can see if you don't want exits due to what might be behind the intended target, then something else would be a good thing.

 

[Mountain Goat]

After trying them and after reading upon them I am done with them.

When they work they work great but when they do not..... well I can not accept that.

I second that, even though I never got to the point of loading any Bergers. There's just no advantage that I see to using them. It makes it tough when there are credible accounts of both success and failure, not just, "it blew up on the shoulder, and the deer ran off," type a thing.

I had a 165gr Partition fail to penetrate the on-side hide of a deer once, but I just chalked it up as a fluke. The nose section destroyed the lungs, and the follow-up shot took care of him. The first thing I noticed when I walked up to him was the base of the Partition protruding from his hide, strange to say the least.

 

[rick smith]

Steve, Four viewers and one shooter??? Shooting from a truck? A friend of mine once shot a large whitetail and it dropped at the shot jumped up and ran away. Two days later I shot the buck. I was using a 30/06 and he was using a 250AI. Reason I say that is there was a perfect 25cal hole in the buck's horn. My bullet would not fit the hole, his did. Just because the buck went down and got back up doesn't mean the shot was a good one. Doubt the on lookers could tell where the bullet hit at 60yds. especially when the buck dropped at the shot. Great to blame the bullet but the story has no support.Rick.

 

[FOTIS]

.................... Great to blame the bullet but the story has no support.Rick.

Rick you may be correct with your statement above
But this does support the bullet's inadequacy in this situation

No it didn't act like it was supposed to, its supposed to penetrate 4" then expand rapidly

does this look like 4" of penetration before it expanded? more like 1" had 3 in a row do this, I don't expect every bullet to exit but at 500 yards when no bone is encountered it should make it into the chest cavity before it comes completely apart.
RR

Ever see a Partition or an AccuBond do this? We are all free to use what we want on game (Don't get me started on the Matchkings! :evil: ) but performance like this on 3 deer in a row personally kills my confidence in this bullet for hunting sir.

Just saying......

 

[SJB358]

.................... Great to blame the bullet but the story has no support.Rick.

Rick you may be correct with your statement above
But this does support the bullet's inadequacy in this situation

No it didn't act like it was supposed to, its supposed to penetrate 4" then expand rapidly

does this look like 4" of penetration before it expanded? more like 1" had 3 in a row do this, I don't expect every bullet to exit but at 500 yards when no bone is encountered it should make it into the chest cavity before it comes completely apart.
RR

Ever see a Partition or an AccuBond do this? We are all free to use what we want on game (Don't get me started on the Matchkings! :evil: ) but performance like this on 3 deer in a row personally kills my confidence in this bullet for hunting sir.

Just saying......

Those were 140's as well, which baffled me a bit too, as they were pretty long shots. I do agree, each to the their own, but I would be VERY unhappy to find a bullet that splattered like that. I know it's difficult to assess each and every shot, but I these don't tend to bode well with a good bullet. Scotty

 

[muleman]

I shot two antelope this year with the 95gr hunting VLD. My 6mm-284 starts them out at almost 3600fps so at impact (450 & 300 yds) they were doing about 3000-3100fps. The buck was quartering to me at 450yds and I hit him 2" behind the elbow. No exit and DRT! The doe I hit broadside at 300yds hit no bone going in and left about a 2" exit. She spun 180 and dropped.
My only experience with Bergers. Sure would like to try those 90gr Accubonds :roll: !

Scott

 

[FOTIS]

Scott I have used 2 VLD.s
140 from my 264 win mag. Antelope at 277 DRT
210 VLD at 349 yds on antelope DRT.

My personal problem is (not necessarily anyone else's) is that I have seen way too many failures . Hence my lack of confidence in this projectile.

 

[muleman]

Fotis,
My experience is very limited with these VLDs. By their intended design and huge amount of varibles in the sport of hunting I think any significent chance of bullet failure has to be taken seriously. If I had my way - I'd shoot Accubonds and Partitions in every gun I own. Now - If every gun would shoot them and Nosler made them in all calibers it would be a beautiful thing. I've never had a AccuBond or Partition fail! 8)

Scott

 

[corbin9191]

Anyone shoot any big game up close? How does it hold up?

I have shot a few deer, one at 620 yards and this year one at 120 yards. They held up great! Hardly any meat loss.

 

[Kodiak]

I'm havin' such consistant success with Nosler's PT, AB, BT, etc. I just ain't got time to try out anything new, sorry :wink: !

 

[JD338]

I have never shot Bergers so maybe I am missing out on something.
For me, I will stay with Nosler bullets, the BT, AB, or PT. The all give predictable on game performance both near and far.

JD338

 

[DrMike]

I've never been able to transition from the idea that a match bullet will work for the game I hunt. Clearly, the VLD can work quite well; and there is no doubt that for distance shooters the bullet gives good performance. However, my style of hunting frequently gets up close and personal with some reasonably big critters. For such animals, I prefer a tough bullet that will penetrate and break bone. I do not want to think about a bullet failure when I'm close. It is a good enough reason for me to use AccuBonds and Partitions.

 

[IdahoCTD]

All the more reason for Nosler to make a bonded AMAX/VLD style AccuBond Mike. It looks like they are getting the hint somewhat with the 300gr .338 bullet. Now build a .308 210-220gr, 7mm 175-185gr, .375 350gr, and a .416 375-400gr :lol: with a longer nose profile and longer tip.

I shot one elk this year (400yds) and a friend shot another (612yds) with 210gr Matrix VLD's and while they performed ok, in my opinion, one of the two that my friend shot his elk with didn't perform like it should. It only made it half way through the elk with the core separated in the liver. It might have killed the elk but I told him to shoot again. The other 2 were clean pass through's with lung shots.

 

[Desert Fox]

I don't know that I'd say that VLDs are liable to explode; but as is true with any cup-and-core bullet, we are asking a lot when we ask for penetration to the vitals though impact velocities may well exceed 3000 fps. I don't doubt that such can kill, but I've seen the density of bone of elk, moose, grizzly and bison. Personally, since I generally shoot these particular game at reasonably close ranges, I opt for a bullet that maintains integrity at higher velocities. I do caution people to consider what they are asking of their bullet and to consider the worst case scenario. When we choose to shoot cup and core bullets, we need to assume responsibility to pass on shots that we know will push the bullet beyond what it was designed to do.

WORDS OF WISDOM

 

[Guy Miner]

Several years ago when I first started reading about guys having success in the hunting fields with Berger VLD bullets, I got real interested because I'd had good results with them while target shooting. Typically they were very accurate, shot flatter and had less wind drift than bullets of comparable weight. I just hadn't really thought of them for hunting.

Then I read some info from John Barsness, and I must admit to highly respecting his opinion. Also read a couple of articles from other guys. Learned that literally many wild boar had been killed in field testing and one guide was quoted as saying they were the fastest killing bullets he'd ever seen. Barsness went on a Berger-sponsored trip to New Zealand to hunt goats and red stag. (I need a job like that) He came back with some pretty impressive stories about the VLD performance on creatures large and small, at ranges near and far. Bullets used were .25 & .30 cal VLD's.

What Barsness stressed in his writing is different than what many have picked up on. Most seem to pick up on the violent expansion of the VLD that occurs, while ignoring the tiny, near pinprick size entrance and resulting penetration. Barsness claims the VLD is one of the very few bullets that doesn't start expanding immediately on impact. He discusses it penetrating two - four inches, getting into the chest cavity, then expanding violently. He also called it the deadliest bullet he'd ever used.

All that stuff got my attention and I decided to give 'em a try from my .25-06 Rem 700, on mule deer. Loaded up 115 gr VLD bullets over a healthy charge of Retumbo, and found they developed just shy of 3200 fps, and produced good accuracy. I sighted them in at 300 yards.

Buck 1: A big, mature mule deer, well over 200 pounds with a 26" wide 4x4 rack. He was well below me, 230 yards away, moving up and over a smaller ridge. All I had to shoot at was his back - so I took the spine shot. He stepped just as I squeezed off the round, and I hit a little far back doggone it. Dropped him instantly and he tumbled down the ridge into a deep ravine, but he wasn't dead. That bullet hit just to one side of the spine shattering the spine, and actually exited sideways out the rib cage. Wish I'd taken a photo of that exit wound. From the size and shape it looks like the bullet was very much intact when it exited.

I had to put a finishing shot into his chest from about 100 yards, and it killed him very quickly. A remnant of that bullet was recovered, only 33 grains of twisted/smashed bullet jacket with a little lead remaining. Looking at that bullet entrance, I saw that there was almost no visible entrance wound, but that as it went through the muscle tissue it had about a caliber size hole - until it reached the inside of the chest cavity. Then it opened up into sort of a funnel shape. The heart & lungs were complete mush, and I found the bullet under the off-side hide.

Buck 2: Stalked a young 3x3 mule deer, and got within 175 yards. Waited for him to stand and deliberately put the bullet right into his shoulder blade. He collapsed instantly. Dead as he dropped apparently. On examination I found the expanded remnant of the VLD right under the hide on the off side. Again the entry was tiny and couldn't even be found from the outside. And again, the heart & lungs were destroyed.

Doe: Decided to take a longish poke at a doe. Ranged her at 400 yards, held on hair, and squeezed. She dropped instantly. Apparently dead at the shot. The entrance wound was undetectable from outside the deer. The heart and lungs were again mushed. There was no exit, and I didn't find the bullet. Likely lost during the cleaning process.

Three mule deer, four bullets from 100 yard - 400 yards. All shots were effective. Tiny entrance wounds. Only one exit from the one bullet that glanced off the side of the first buck's spine. Utter destruction of the heart & lungs in each case. Instant drops in all three cases.

Meat loss? No more than with any other high velocity expanding bullet.

I realize that's only three mule deer, but Washington doesn't allow more than one deer a season. I took time to really check out what happened with the Bergers when they hit. I remain impressed. I'm also convinced that Barsness has very accurately described how they perform: tiny entrance wound, penetration into the chest cavity, violent expansion and very quick/instant death.

Their performance does remind me a bit of the Ballistic Tip - except that I've seen bigger entrance wounds from the Ballistic Tip, and usually get an exit from the B-Tip. The internal destruction is comparable. Accuracy is comparable. The high BC of the Berger is a factor in it's favor, particularly if ranges are long.

FWIW, Guy

 

[Ridge_Runner]

Several years ago when I first started reading about guys having success in the hunting fields with Berger VLD bullets, I got real interested because I'd had good results with them while target shooting. Typically they were very accurate, shot flatter and had less wind drift than bullets of comparable weight. I just hadn't really thought of them for hunting.

Then I read some info from John Barsness, and I must admit to highly respecting his opinion. Also read a couple of articles from other guys. Learned that literally many wild boar had been killed in field testing and one guide was quoted as saying they were the fastest killing bullets he'd ever seen. Barsness went on a Berger-sponsored trip to New Zealand to hunt goats and red stag. (I need a job like that) He came back with some pretty impressive stories about the VLD performance on creatures large and small, at ranges near and far. Bullets used were .25 & .30 cal VLD's.

What Barsness stressed in his writing is different than what many have picked up on. Most seem to pick up on the violent expansion of the VLD that occurs, while ignoring the tiny, near pinprick size entrance and resulting penetration. Barsness claims the VLD is one of the very few bullets that doesn't start expanding immediately on impact. He discusses it penetrating two - four inches, getting into the chest cavity, then expanding violently. He also called it the deadliest bullet he'd ever used.

All that stuff got my attention and I decided to give 'em a try from my .25-06 Rem 700, on mule deer. Loaded up 115 gr VLD bullets over a healthy charge of Retumbo, and found they developed just shy of 3200 fps, and produced good accuracy. I sighted them in at 300 yards.

Buck 1: A big, mature mule deer, well over 200 pounds with a 26" wide 4x4 rack. He was well below me, 230 yards away, moving up and over a smaller ridge. All I had to shoot at was his back - so I took the spine shot. He stepped just as I squeezed off the round, and I hit a little far back doggone it. Dropped him instantly and he tumbled down the ridge into a deep ravine, but he wasn't dead. That bullet hit just to one side of the spine shattering the spine, and actually exited sideways out the rib cage. Wish I'd taken a photo of that exit wound. From the size and shape it looks like the bullet was very much intact when it exited.

I had to put a finishing shot into his chest from about 100 yards, and it killed him very quickly. A remnant of that bullet was recovered, only 33 grains of twisted/smashed bullet jacket with a little lead remaining. Looking at that bullet entrance, I saw that there was almost no visible entrance wound, but that as it went through the muscle tissue it had about a caliber size hole - until it reached the inside of the chest cavity. Then it opened up into sort of a funnel shape. The heart & lungs were complete mush, and I found the bullet under the off-side hide.

Buck 2: Stalked a young 3x3 mule deer, and got within 175 yards. Waited for him to stand and deliberately put the bullet right into his shoulder blade. He collapsed instantly. Dead as he dropped apparently. On examination I found the expanded remnant of the VLD right under the hide on the off side. Again the entry was tiny and couldn't even be found from the outside. And again, the heart & lungs were destroyed.

Doe: Decided to take a longish poke at a doe. Ranged her at 400 yards, held on hair, and squeezed. She dropped instantly. Apparently dead at the shot. The entrance wound was undetectable from outside the deer. The heart and lungs were again mushed. There was no exit, and I didn't find the bullet. Likely lost during the cleaning process.

Three mule deer, four bullets from 100 yard - 400 yards. All shots were effective. Tiny entrance wounds. Only one exit from the one bullet that glanced off the side of the first buck's spine. Utter destruction of the heart & lungs in each case. Instant drops in all three cases.

Meat loss? No more than with any other high velocity expanding bullet.

I realize that's only three mule deer, but Washington doesn't allow more than one deer a season. I took time to really check out what happened with the Bergers when they hit. I remain impressed. I'm also convinced that Barsness has very accurately described how they perform: tiny entrance wound, penetration into the chest cavity, violent expansion and very quick/instant death.

Their performance does remind me a bit of the Ballistic Tip - except that I've seen bigger entrance wounds from the Ballistic Tip, and usually get an exit from the B-Tip. The internal destruction is comparable. Accuracy is comparable. The high BC of the Berger is a factor in it's favor, particularly if ranges are long.

FWIW, Guy

This is what I don't understand, the differnce between the performance of bergers in your rifle and mine, not doubting your experience at all, I've read all the great performance reports on many shooting forums but I can't come close to duplicating them in my gibbs. It has to be the difference in the barrels, my 6.5 has an 8 twist krieger which is cut rifled, It is lapped as all custom barrels are so the rough barrel idea shouldn't apply. so maybe the added spin is to much for the thin jackets. however what lil bit of experience I have with the thick jacketed match vld's (yellow box) seems that they will mirror your results of the hunting bullets in my fast twist 6.5, will try the yellow box again and see if my theory holds up with more testing.
anyone wat to trade 6.5 140's a yellow box for an orange one?
RR

 

[SJB358]

RR, I am clueless to what makes Bergers fail/succeed but I wonder if the cut rifling might weaken jackets? As in the hard ridges might actually press so far into the jacket during barrel travel, that when the bullet hits it has no kidding, pre cut skivs? Just spit balling a little and wonder if that is why the Target types work better? Sorry, didn't mean to get this off track. I have no dog in the Bergers. Till they can bond their bullets to hold up in them sleek designs I won't be messing with them too much. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

That's an interesting point, Scotty. I do know that accuracy with Bergers is very hard to obtain with some rifles compared to others. I have suspected that some rifling degrades accuracy due to scribing the jacket during transit down the bore.

 

[SJB358]

That's an interesting point, Scotty. I do know that accuracy with Bergers is very hard to obtain with some rifles compared to others. I have suspected that some rifling degrades accuracy due to scribing the jacket during transit down the bore.

I really have no idea, but I wondered if the ultra accurate cut riflings may wreak havoc on thin jacketed bullets. Again, it isn't much of a worry to me, as I don't plan on running them for any kind of serious hunting anyhow. Scotty

 

[Ridge_Runner]

That's an interesting point, Scotty. I do know that accuracy with Bergers is very hard to obtain with some rifles compared to others. I have suspected that some rifling degrades accuracy due to scribing the jacket during transit down the bore.

the hunting bullets shoot very very well, in my 6.5, groups mostly average 2.5-4" at the range of around 800 yards with a couple groups bordering on unbelievable, they shoot no better nor worse than the thicker jacketed target bullets. I've read nothing on cut vs. button rifled barrels and thin jackets that was scientificly tested, this is actualy the first it has came up on a forum.
I have however witnessed the difference in expansion of bullets because of higher rate of spin with a faster twist barrel in 223 cals. my 8 twist always leaves a bigger exit than my 12 twist shooting ultra-max reman 55 gr sp ammo, though it shoots about 60 fps slower it has a spin rate of 93K rpm more than the 12 twist.now just for kicks and grins my 6.5 has an 8 twist at 3160 fps will spin the bullet approx. 285,000 rpms, if it were a 9 twist and say would run the 140 a bit faster say 3300 fps, then it would generate 263,000 rpm's, a 10 twist at 3300 would run 238,000 rpm's. this makes sense but there are many calibers that will drive the 140 much faster (6.5 stw, 6.5/300 weatherby, 6.5 allen) so it seems that if those shooters tried a berger it very well could shed its jacket in flight if they are that volatile to high rate of spin.just ramblings of a dumb redneck country boy!
RR