Berger VLD bullets

[SJB358]

the hunting bullets shoot very very well, in my 6.5, groups mostly average 2.5-4" at the range of around 800 yards with a couple groups bordering on unbelievable, they shoot no better nor worse than the thicker jacketed target bullets. I've read nothing on cut vs. button rifled barrels and thin jackets that was scientificly tested, this is actualy the first it has came up on a forum.
I have however witnessed the difference in expansion of bullets because of higher rate of spin with a faster twist barrel in 223 cals. my 8 twist always leaves a bigger exit than my 12 twist shooting ultra-max reman 55 gr sp ammo, though it shoots about 60 fps slower it has a spin rate of 93K rpm more than the 12 twist.now just for kicks and grins my 6.5 has an 8 twist at 3160 fps will spin the bullet approx. 285,000 rpms, if it were a 9 twist and say would run the 140 a bit faster say 3300 fps, then it would generate 263,000 rpm's, a 10 twist at 3300 would run 238,000 rpm's. this makes sense but there are many calibers that will drive the 140 much faster (6.5 stw, 6.5/300 weatherby, 6.5 allen) so it seems that if those shooters tried a berger it very well could shed its jacket in flight if they are that volatile to high rate of spin.just ramblings of a dumb redneck country boy!

Great info RR. Sounds like something is voodoo in the mix for the Bergers anyhow. I read about Df having the 180 Berger's out of his 7WSM not make it to the target as well, and I was just wondering as I thought his was a cut rifled barrel as well? Again, more ramblings of yet another country boy! Scotty
RR

 

[Desert Fox]

I read about Df having the 180 Berger's out of his 7WSM not make it to the target as well, and I was just wondering as I thought his was a cut rifled barrel as well? Again, more ramblings of yet another country boy! Scotty

Scotty,
The jury is still out on this one. I still think that the failure of the 180 grain-7MM Berger VLD in my rifle can be attributed to a combination of a fast rifling twist and high velocity, coupled that with the barrel got so hot from continuous firing.

I've only shot one animal with Berger Hunting VLD bullet and that was last year on a small Texas Mule deer at 603 yards with my 6.5-284. Even at that distance, the lead core got separated from the jacket. The estimated impact velocity at 2000 ft/sec. and energy at around 1300ft.lb. The deer dropped as if the rug was pulled from under it. I found the jacket resting under the skin in between the ribs. The lead core was lost in the gut pile. Small entry wound but total devastation inside. It's like a grenade exploded inside. I shot the deer late in the afternoon and it was already dark by the time I gutted the deer so I planned on looking for the core in the morning but, either the pig or coyote got to it first during the night.

Here's the remain of the bullet.

I have a friend who hunt's a lot and use Berger VLD's exclusively on his 257 Weatherby and 7MM Remington Magnum. This friend of mine shoots more animal in a year than most of us shoot in a life time. These are trophy grade animal that could score high in any books. He told me to stay with Match VLD rather than the Hunting VLD because the jacket is bit thicker on the Match. He talks highly of Berger.

 

[SJB358]

DF, I think you have the typical Berger performance right there. Still not sure I would be entirely happy with that. Granted it smacks deer hard, so who am I to argue! It's good to have choices. Scotty

 

[Guy Miner]

"The jury is still out on this one. I still think that the failure of the 180 grain-7MM Berger VLD in my rifle can be attributed to a combination of a fast rifling twist and high velocity, coupled that with the barrel got so hot from continuous firing."

There was considerable discussion on this issue a few years ago over on 6mmBR.com - and one result was that Berger developed the thicker jacket "target" VLD bullets. Those that are now designated as "hunting" have the original thin jackets.

Target shooters were experiencing bullet failures In Flight, and possible causes named were:

fast twist barrels
high velocity
hot barrels

For those who haven't seen it - bullet failure in flight isn't all that rare in target competition when the edges are pushed a bit. Berger isn't the only bullet maker to experience these failures as target shooters pushed hotter loads through faster twist barrels.

Mildly interesting that although I messed around with the Bergers and shot three mule deer with them over three years, for the past two years I've gone back to hunting with Noslers - both me and my son. Our most recent bucks, and both of our bears last year were all taken with Nosler bullets. If I could have made it happen, I'd have taken an elk with a Nosler too.

Will even be using Noslers in a couple of weeks for the 600 yard New Year's Day Hangover Shoot.

FWIW, Guy

 

[Coyote Hunter]

This thread was reverenced over at 24hourcampfire:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...46717/gonew/1/Berger_VLD_s_for_hunting#UNREAD

All I can say to Bergers for hunting is "No, thanks."

Here is how responded the the thread on the 'fire:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...64519/Re_Berger_VLD_s_for_hunting#Post6064519

*******************************************************

Adkstalker,

As mentioned, there are numerous threads intensely debating the VLD for hunting. Everyone has "opinions", but the only "meaningful" opinions are from those who have actually used them on game. ...

Are you one of those that can’t evaluate the experiences of others and learn from them? There are a lot of people that really like the VLD bullets but there are also people whose experiences with them have been very disappointing.

The problem I have is they seem to act just like Berger advertises:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Lines and Designs.html

The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3” before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13” to 15” long.

Frankly, that is NOT the performance I want I a big game bullet.

Yup, they can kill like lightning with good placement, but a close range/high velocity impact when things go south can be another matter altogether if adequate penetration isn’t achieved. In 2007 I had an ‘easy’ quartering away shot at a mulie buck at 150 yards with my 7mm RM and a 140g North Fork loaded to 3200fps. The buck stepped forward and turned away just as the trigger broke. Instead of hitting behind the ribs the bullet hit the right rear ham and drove forward. A Berger with 15” of penetration would probably have dropped the deer but maybe not an elk and I expect a lot of damage would have been done to the ham. The 140g North Fork I was using did surprisingly little damage to the ham and was found up against the sternum. The buck dropped so fast I thought it had stepped over a ledge.

Here I how one hunter relates his experience with Berger bullets (“140gr 6.5's out of the gibbs at a MV of 3160 fps” from a subsequent post) and he is just one of many that have had disappointing experiences. From http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15668&hilit=berger+vld :

No it didn't act like it was supposed to, its supposed to penetrate 4" then expand rapidly

does this look like 4" of penetration before it expanded? [color:#FF0000]more like 1" had 3 in a row do this[/color], I don't expect every bullet to exit but at 500 yards when no bone is encountered it should make it into the chest cavity before it comes completely apart.
RR

At 500 yards that bullet was going considerably slower than it would have been at closer ranges, yet it still came apart before penetrating. Contrast the performance of this Berger bullet (140gr 6.5's out of the gibbs at a MV of 3160 fps at 500 yards, calculated 2431fps @ impact, versus the 7mm 140g North Fork at 3200fps and a calculated impact @ a much higher 2842fps. Although close in diameter and weight, the Berger came apart very early while the North Fork held together and penetrated deeply.

This and similar experiences by other hunters is more than enough for me to form an opinion about the Berger VLD bullets. They might drop game faster on a broadside or quartering shot but they often tend to do more meat damage than the bullets I use and I feel the chances of lost game (particularly elk sized) is greater if things go bad as they did with the mulie buck mentioned earlier. Moreover, I highly suspect that smaller/lighter/faster VLD’s exacerbate the probability of failure in such cases.

Let me add that since I am paying the freight and must live with the results, the only opinion on the Berger VLDs that is “meaningful” to me is the one I’ve come to after evaluating the experiences of many others, both good and bad.

 

[corbin9191]

This thread was reverenced over at 24hourcampfire:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...46717/gonew/1/Berger_VLD_s_for_hunting#UNREAD

All I can say to Bergers for hunting is "No, thanks."

Here is how responded the the thread on the 'fire:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...64519/Re_Berger_VLD_s_for_hunting#Post6064519

*******************************************************

Adkstalker,

As mentioned, there are numerous threads intensely debating the VLD for hunting. Everyone has "opinions", but the only "meaningful" opinions are from those who have actually used them on game. ...

Are you one of those that can’t evaluate the experiences of others and learn from them? There are a lot of people that really like the VLD bullets but there are also people whose experiences with them have been very disappointing.

The problem I have is they seem to act just like Berger advertises:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Lines and Designs.html

The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3” before it starts to expand. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 40% to 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organ). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13” to 15” long.

Frankly, that is NOT the performance I want I a big game bullet.

Yup, they can kill like lightning with good placement, but a close range/high velocity impact when things go south can be another matter altogether if adequate penetration isn’t achieved. In 2007 I had an ‘easy’ quartering away shot at a mulie buck at 150 yards with my 7mm RM and a 140g North Fork loaded to 3200fps. The buck stepped forward and turned away just as the trigger broke. Instead of hitting behind the ribs the bullet hit the right rear ham and drove forward. A Berger with 15” of penetration would probably have dropped the deer but maybe not an elk and I expect a lot of damage would have been done to the ham. The 140g North Fork I was using did surprisingly little damage to the ham and was found up against the sternum. The buck dropped so fast I thought it had stepped over a ledge.

Here I how one hunter relates his experience with Berger bullets (“140gr 6.5's out of the gibbs at a MV of 3160 fps” from a subsequent post) and he is just one of many that have had disappointing experiences. From http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15668&hilit=berger+vld :

No it didn't act like it was supposed to, its supposed to penetrate 4" then expand rapidly

does this look like 4" of penetration before it expanded? [color:#FF0000]more like 1" had 3 in a row do this[/color], I don't expect every bullet to exit but at 500 yards when no bone is encountered it should make it into the chest cavity before it comes completely apart.
RR

At 500 yards that bullet was going considerably slower than it would have been at closer ranges, yet it still came apart before penetrating. Contrast the performance of this Berger bullet (140gr 6.5's out of the gibbs at a MV of 3160 fps at 500 yards, calculated 2431fps @ impact, versus the 7mm 140g North Fork at 3200fps and a calculated impact @ a much higher 2842fps. Although close in diameter and weight, the Berger came apart very early while the North Fork held together and penetrated deeply.

This and similar experiences by other hunters is more than enough for me to form an opinion about the Berger VLD bullets. They might drop game faster on a broadside or quartering shot but they often tend to do more meat damage than the bullets I use and I feel the chances of lost game (particularly elk sized) is greater if things go bad as they did with the mulie buck mentioned earlier. Moreover, I highly suspect that smaller/lighter/faster VLD’s exacerbate the probability of failure in such cases.

Let me add that since I am paying the freight and must live with the results, the only opinion on the Berger VLDs that is “meaningful” to me is the one I’ve come to after evaluating the experiences of many others, both good and bad.

This past hunting season my brother and I both used the 168 grain berger target VLD bullet out of our 7mm's. He is using the 7mm rem mag and I am using the 7mm wsm. my deer was shot at around the 140 yard mark and the impact velocity should have been in the 2750-2800 fps mark. My brothers deer was shot right at 243 yards and the impact should have been close to the same velocity (his bullet is going 3081 fps at muzzle). Both deer dropped where they stood and both bullets were recovered. There was hardly any meat damage and both were heart and lung shots. Plus both bullets hit a rib on impact. My recovered bullet was right at 137.6 grains. The rem mags bullet was recovered at 47.0 grains. Here is a picture of the bullets. Bullet on the left weighs 42.1 grains, next bullet weighs 47.2 grains, next bullet weighs 137.6 grains and the last bullet weighs 167.9 grains. (yes it was shot out of my 7mm wsm and I found it on top of the snow when I got up t a target I was shooting at.) I honestly think these are great bullets for hunting, I would even trust them on elk.

 

[FOTIS]

I will stick to my AB's fellas.

 

[jmad_81]

I think I'm with you on that. Was going to try the 168 VLD out of my 7 STW, but I got the 160 AB doing really close to 3200, and .5 MOA so I'm sticking with that. Come to think about it, all my big game rifles shoot an AB of some sort. They are just a good bullet.

 

[corbin9191]

I will stick to my AB's fellas.

I am switching over to the AccuBond when they finally come out with the 300 grain for the 338 lapua :twisted:

 

[Elkman]

I am/was also involved in the discussion on 24, and I will make a similar comment here. To me the results are variable. One hunter swears by them and another has pictures as posted here. I do not want my animals looking like this, nor do I want pencil sized holes through them. To many other options out there that work the same way every time.

 

[DrMike]

To me the results are variable. One hunter swears by them and another has pictures as posted here. I do not want my animals looking like this, nor do I want pencil sized holes through them. To many other options out there that work the same way every time.

Bingo. Well said, Bill.

 

[FOTIS]

Whatever trips your trigger fellas :mrgreen:

 

[SJB358]

I think I'm with you on that. Was going to try the 168 VLD out of my 7 STW, but I got the 160 AB doing really close to 3200, and .5 MOA so I'm sticking with that. Come to think about it, all my big game rifles shoot an AB of some sort. They are just a good bullet.

Same here, I can't find a good enough reason to want anything more than an AB or PT. for the most part, they will shoot easily and work dependably on game which I hunt. Since my preferred hunting is elk, I gear towards them. If I was shooting pretty much just deer, BTs in heavy for caliber would be my choice. I like to try different things, but I wanna KNOW they are going to work when they get there.

 

[WYcoyote]

After seeing hundreds of posts on multiple forums with Berger VLDs on game, and my own test of two, I am going to continue to use them on deer and antelope, but for elk, bear, moose etc., I will use the "harder' style designs.
I trust the bonded core and Partition style bullets much more when deeper penetration and big bone smashing is needed, especially when the perfect angle is not possible.

 

[OldMan]

I've never shot a deer or elk that didn't go right down with a Ballistic tip placed behind the shoulder so that's what I'll use on lighter game, but when I don't want to take a chance it will be the AB or PT. How about a 200 BT in 30 for the "slam em to the ground" effect on elk with magnums B.C. 0f .588). For me it's the 200 AB for now!

 

[edge]

I have been shooting the Nosler Custom Competition 8mm 200 grain bullet with good results on whitetails.
With target bullets you do need to pick your shots, avoid big bones at close range and try to hit bone at long distance.

I like the AB at close range but 1800 fps for reliable expansion along with their somewhat lower BC's limit my range a bit more than I would like.

edge.

 

[J300UM]

Anyone shoot any big game up close? How does it hold up?

Fotis,

I've killed two elk with the exact same caliber, bullet, velocity you have. Both were inside 80 yds. One a cow quartered away. Bullet broke the 2nd and 3rd ribs and turned the back half of the boiler room into jelly (just as advertised). She ran 40 yds into the thick stuff and piled up. The only problem I had with this is there was NO blood trail so there was a moment of complete discouragement before finding her (thought I missed!) The second was a spike bull last year up by aspen alley. He was running right to left through the trees. I found an opening and let him have it. Dropped instantly. Then all of the sudden he started to get back up. Without even thinkin about it, I tried to put one through his shoulders. He went down like someone smacked him with a boat paddle! When I got to him he was still alive! A Partition from my buddy's 6.5-06 behind the ear made quick work of that. Upon inspection my first shot hit just below the spine and clipped the very back edge of the lungs (not my best shot). Then after skinning him down I noticed the shoulder I hit with the second shot was a bloody mess but not a single piece of the bullet got through the scapula. I felt like crap cuz I hate shootin animals up like that. So with my limited experience with VLDs, I would say that up close stay off big bone and they work. I still feel way more comfortable with Accubonds. Especially when I'm hunting up north in grizz country.

 

[bullet]

I will stick to my AB's fellas.

+ one

 

[Guest]

I'm with Fotis, AB and Partitions. I only use Ballistic Tips for Whitetail Deer. I do not like the bullet fragmentation Bergers have.

Don

 

[SJB358]

Anyone shoot any big game up close? How does it hold up?

Fotis,

I've killed two elk with the exact same caliber, bullet, velocity you have. Both were inside 80 yds. One a cow quartered away. Bullet broke the 2nd and 3rd ribs and turned the back half of the boiler room into jelly (just as advertised). She ran 40 yds into the thick stuff and piled up. The only problem I had with this is there was NO blood trail so there was a moment of complete discouragement before finding her (thought I missed!) The second was a spike bull last year up by aspen alley. He was running right to left through the trees. I found an opening and let him have it. Dropped instantly. Then all of the sudden he started to get back up. Without even thinkin about it, I tried to put one through his shoulders. He went down like someone smacked him with a boat paddle! When I got to him he was still alive! A Partition from my buddy's 6.5-06 behind the ear made quick work of that. Upon inspection my first shot hit just below the spine and clipped the very back edge of the lungs (not my best shot). Then after skinning him down I noticed the shoulder I hit with the second shot was a bloody mess but not a single piece of the bullet got through the scapula. I felt like crap cuz I hate shootin animals up like that. So with my limited experience with VLDs, I would say that up close stay off big bone and they work. I still feel way more comfortable with Accubonds. Especially when I'm hunting up north in grizz country.

That was great info. Thanks for posting that. Pretty interesting..