Why no 277 wildcats?

[nitis]

Again my mind wanders some times thought this would make for good conversation.

Why dont we ever hear about the 277 I think the 270 wsm is a great round but that is all that has been done in quite sometime to the 277. You never hear of a 270-08 270AI 270STW for anything else that has been done with everyother bullet including 6mm 257 6.5 and 7mm

heck the 270 win and wsm are 2 of the best rounds ever developed and that does not even mention the 270 wby which can be a real hammer

Is it because the 284 and 264 bullets have better BCs?

This could be good or maybe I will learn of some I have yet to hear of

 

[Elkman]

Maybe its because Elmer Keith put a curse on the .270.
Can't you think about how to make me a millionaire?
I am thinking that I read some where that the .270 WSM is on its way out. Its apparently not a best seller among us. It is also not to popular with the Weatherby crowd with the 300 and the 257 being very popular.
If I had to take a guess I would guess that most of the mentioned wildcats are like the .270 an offspring of the 06. Why would you call a wildcat a .277/6.5 when the parent case of both was the 06. If you think about it (I gave it 10 seconds at most) what is a .277-06 its of course a .270. Maybe I did come up with the answer. Took me a long time though. The .277 STW would be even more inefficient than the 7mm STW and probably not be marketable even with the modern hype that comes with new cartridges. Any way nuff from me.
Can you think of something else tomorrow night???

 

[SJB358]

I think the reason why there isn't really many wildcats off the .277 is they are pretty well covered for even the most looney of rifle guys. I know there was a 270 Savage back in the day that was supposed to be a moderately popular wildcat that was meant for the M99 Savages. I have also heard of a bi one built off a Ultra Mag case, that spit 150's out at 3500-3600 I believe. Not sure, but I read something on one awhile back. They were shooting some specialty bullets in the 169-175gr class and they looked like missiles!

I love my 270WSM, it is fast as heck, doesn't use a ton of powder and for the life of me, I cannot make it shoot bad enough to go over an inch with any of my loads. Even factory loads are awesome in the rifle. It is a box stock M70, so that has to say a little something. The BC's on most of the 277 caliber bullets are fully in line with the 7mm bullets of the same approximate weight. My father was not a fan of 270's just because he shot a 30-06 and when I told him I was getting a 270WSM some years ago, he wondered why I would ever shoot any big game with less than a 308 caliber! After I dumped some elk and splashed deer down with some real authority, he started to see just how good they were. I still don't think they are an ideal elk round, even at WSM/WBY speeds, but they are plenty good enough for most. Plus, if you take in that a 150gr bullet at 3100FPS with a 3" high zero at 100, gives you a 300 zero, and less than a ft drop at 400, it makes hitting really easy, even for the worst of range estimators! Scotty

 

[roysclockgun]

Shortly after the 270WSM was introduced, it was toted as being superior to the 270Win. However, not many owners of rifles chambered in 270Win ran out and bought new rifles chambered for 270WSM.
The 270Wby has enjoyed a small, but loyal niche, that has not set the world on fire.
Not much excitement has been created for the 270cal since the days of Jack O'Connor's writings. The 270Win was introduced in 1935 and has been among the top selling cartridges of all time (in large part because of O'Connor). However, in most cases, the 270cal cartridges are outperformed by those cartridges using a 7mm bullet. That could, in part, explain why we see more cartridges using 7mm bullets than we do 277 cal bullets. The 7mm down range ballistics are superior. Add to that the fact that the 7mm rifles can handle heavier bullets better than does the 270 cartridges and we have the 7mm being a more versatile bullet/cartridge.
During the 1950s, a number of hand loaders were turning out hot 270Win cartridges for varmint shooting and that created the myth that the 270Win was a barrel burner.
I was very loyal to my old M70 Win. in 270Win and used it successfully on deer for many years. It was made in 1952 and I never saw any drop in the accuracy that it provided. However, when I had a chance to go west after elk and mule deer, I wanted a rifle that would provide more range distance and down range power, and I went to the 7mmRemMag, which I still use for all hunting.
Lastly, following WWII, tons of milsurp rifles were dumped on the market at very low prices and many were chambered for the already popular 30-06. Until many Americans began to have more disposable income, many only owned one rifle for deer hunting and in a lot of instances that rifle was a sporterized military rifle, chambered for 30-06. There just was never enough difference between the 30-06 and the 270Win to cause a lot of riflemen to run out and buy another rifle.
Availabiity and popularity of other calibers used to create wildcat cartridges left the 277 bullets behind as one more orphan in the crowd.
My opinion,
Steven

 

[DrMike]

I note that QuickLoad lists 21 (excluding 270 WIN and 270 WSM) cartridges built around 277 bullets. Obviously, wildcatters have tried to change things up. However, it is difficult to believe that the .277 bullet offers significant advantages over a .264 and/or a .284 bullet. Bullet selection and general public resistance to embracing what is untried mitigate against a rush to any cartridge chambered in .277.

 

[30-338]

One problem with the 270 is bullets/barrels the other is suitable case for the short action that the shooting public would accept.

When Kirby did the 270 Allen mag it was a big boost for the 270 caliber
http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum5/124.html

One problem building on one supplier like Wildcat bullets you better buy a lifetime supply for that barrel. Wildcat bullets has sold new owners having problems on the supply side so interest has died off.

PO Ackley tried his hand with the 270 Ackley mag off the 7mag case also the 270x257AI then you have the 270 Gibbs,270x284,270x308 plus about 15 other wildcats like 270x223,270JDJ.

I did the 280AI then did a 30x280AI also a 338x280AI then was going to do a 270x280AI. I called around looking at barrels most comments I got from those guys why mess with the 270 and the only one I got any real good feed back from was Brux barrels.

One thing I've always done is just worry about what I'm going to build instead of comparing it to some other caliber. Last year got the 270 with the Lilja barrel already had the 270WSM with a Lawton barrel.

I did look at the 270 Allen mag for the 150gr bullet appr 400fps more than the 270Wby with 100gr plus of powder. I was kind of thinking maybe a 270Wby good 26.5" long 5r barrel 1/10 twist have it headspaced on the shoulders no Wby freebore OAL 3.300" throated for a good 150gr bullet around 3300fps using 70gr of powder make a nice hunting rifle.

Thats my latest project gunsmith got the Rockcreek 5r barrel I'm using one of the actions that was a 30-338mag decided don't need three of them. Somebody got the keep the 270's alive might as well be me.

 

[roysclockgun]

No arguement from me, in terms of what someone wants to build and/or shoot. Heck, I am still messing with the little 6mm BRM and it will do nothing that could not be done with a number of older 6mm cartridges, save for using 30-30 brass, which headspaces on the rim in the falling block action.
I would never be surprised to see some gun rag journalist pick up on a wildcat cartridge using a 277 bullet and begin touting it as the greatest deer killer EVER. When I had my shop, many armchair warriors came in and ordered some new cartridge/rifle combo, only to come back in a year, wanting to swap it out on a newer, "best ever" combination. Many times last year's model came back in unfired!!
If we all wanted to be satisfied with the current array of cartridges and rifle combinations, we would never see anything new introduced. Lord knows, in terms of need, we could definitely make due with the current offerings. From .17cal to at least .50 cal. there are no gaps left open.
Steven

 

[fan300mag]

i had used a 270/243 ack imp, for nearly 10 years, is a very nice caliber, easy recoil, very accurate and lethal in hunting, specialty in coues deer and whitetail.

the rifle is light and short, made in a steyr model "L" wiht barrel of 23" krieger contour #1,

using 130grs nosler b. tip i get 3050fps, an grups of 1/2" @ 100 metros


270/243 before fire-forming, 270/243 ack imp, and 308 just for comparation

By mexicanhunter at 2009-07-31

 

[jtoews80]

I had found a 278 ulta mag online via google, sometime back. It was on a gunsmith's site. I then called around and a reamer shop gave me the print for it.
I opened up the print and lo and behold there was a phone number and the name of the reamer designer, so I called him up. The guy was not really happy that his print had been released, I guess it was for his own personal use and he didn't want anybody else seeing it. I won't say who or where, but he was not happy.

He did say that there were 2 versions built, one an AI that would shoot 130grn bullets at 4000FPS, but wouldn't comment on twist rate or much else. Seemed that he didn't want to be liable for his creation in somebody else's hands.
I am not sure it would be worth the expense of a full blown wildcat vs the factory availible 7 RUM. I have a 6.5 on order, but I went with the 6.5 over the 270 because of bullet selection. The 270 Allen mag is fearsome, and the 277 which is built on the 338lm is moreso, however as was mentioned, you NEED the heavy for caliber bullets to make them work.

IF Nosler were to make custom weights in small runs that were produced during the slow periods, there would be some people interested.

JT.

 

[SJB358]

i had used a 270/243 ack imp, for nearly 10 years, is a very nice caliber, easy recoil, very accurate and lethal in hunting, specialty in coues deer and whitetail.

the rifle is light and short, made in a steyr model "L" wiht barrel of 23" krieger contour #1,

using 130grs nosler b. tip i get 3050fps, an grups of 1/2" @ 100 metros


270/243 before fire-forming, 270/243 ack imp, and 308 just for comparation

By mexicanhunter at 2009-07-31

That is a really neat looking round! I like it. That looks like something I would have bought if it was offered commercially. Would be a sweet rifle for carrying and for younger shooters with some excellent reach. Scotty

 

[Guy Miner]

I wonder if perhaps the reason for so few .277" wildcats is because the .270 Win does the job so very well?

It's hard to improve on near perfection...

Sheesh, and this from a guy who doesn't own a .270! :grin:

 

[BK]

It's pretty far down on my list to do, but I would like to give the .270 Redding a try... .308 or 7-08 necked down or .243 or .260 necked up.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

To me, the .277 bullet in a .308 case makes alot of sence. You have a very usable bullet selection ranging from 90gr Sierra varmiter to the 160gr Nosler Patition. I've always felt the 175-200 gr bullets avaliable for the for the 7mm and 308 calibers were a bit much for the avaliable case capacity. Now with the new bullets make for the 6.8 spc such as the 100-110 gr AB, it opens up even more possibilities.

What do you think such a rifle would do with a 110 gr AB....3400? For elk, I suspect you could load a 140gr AB around what 2850-2900? Overall it should make for a compact, flat shooting, moderate recoil package.

 

[nitis]

good point sniper those new little AB 277s need a home

not sure why I am such a sucker for 25s but I have always wanted a 25 souper

 

[30-338]

There a good article in "Wildcat Cartridges Vol II" about the 270-308 mainly with 130gr bullets @ 3100 to 2819fps using a Browning Lever-Action rifle.

Hard to say why the 270-308 never made it been out a long time.

 

[SJB358]

I never thought of that, a 270-08 would be really sweet in a BLR! I couldn't imagine a nicer woods walking rifle. I am kinda partial to the .277 now since my 270WSM has been so good to me. I have neglected the 7mm Mag's since. Scotty

 

[jtoews80]

270-308 or 6.8-08 in an AR platform?? Would be a nasty little rifle for anything up to 400 lbs deer. Or a heck of a good ranch gun.

JT.

 

[gjn11]

I have a 270-300Win. mag imp. and have gotten up to 3500 with a 130 thought the load was pretty hot. I stick to 3400 with a 130 and it flattens deer. I also have a 270 RUM I haven't shot yet as I have to get a stock on it but I regret not making it a 270 STW. I don't think you see many 270 wildcats as most people building a rifle usually go up to 7mm or down to 6.5 mm as there seems to be a better selection of high B.C. bullets.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Shortly after the 270WSM was introduced, it was toted as being superior to the 270Win. However, not many owners of rifles chambered in 270Win ran out and bought new rifles chambered for 270WSM.
The 270Wby has enjoyed a small, but loyal niche, that has not set the world on fire.
Not much excitement has been created for the 270cal since the days of Jack O'Connor's writings. The 270Win was introduced in 1935 and has been among the top selling cartridges of all time (in large part because of O'Connor). Steven

Actually, the .270 was chambered in the Model 54 in 1923 but was not advertised much until the Model 70 went on sale in the later part of 1935. What Elkman said about the .270 sharing a case with the .30-06 is perfecly valid and this fact has surely inhibited any wildcatting of the .270 case.

There is a .270-08 Wildcat but it did not stir anybody. The .270-08 is mentioned in Ackley's handloading books and then dropped out of site. Then in 1957 Remington introduced the .280 but only in their semi auto models and later the model 700 which further muddied the waters for the .270 Winchester. The 7mm Rem Magnum probably was the biggest decison point for most people, after its introduction in 1962, for anyone who want a slightly larger 7mm hunting cartridge larger than .270.

The .270 Weatherby has beeen around since the late 1940's and has never been a great seller, nor are the various WSM and Remington SAUM short magnums that are now available. It seems that the .270 is doomed to sit behind the various 7mm's forever. This probably started out from what I can remember at least partly from the fact that the 7mm has always had a superior selection of bullet weights for the various cartridges of that bore.

I have killed many deer with the .270 Win and also like the .280 Rem another cartridge that has never received the rspect that it deserves. Many rifles have been chambered for the .270 but not so much for the other .270 bore clones.

 

[roysclockgun]

Thanks to Oldtrader for correcting me, regarding the introduction date of the .270Win.
It is obvious to me, that if the vast numbers of would-be hunters who bought "deer rifles" each year knew anything about ballistics, the 30-30 would've died years ago. That, in part, explains why so many superior cartridges make their entry and soon disappear.
The group taking part in discussions here and on other venues, constitute a realitively small fraternity of riflemen who strive to create small bunches of punched holes in paper targets and if we hunt, to hit precisely where we need to hit to bring about a quick, humane death. All of this remains unknown to too many novice riflemen who have entered any hobby involving rifle shooting.
Add to that the fact that many who hunt own only one rifle and are never, in their lifetime convinced that they need another, or that a different caliber would increase the game yield for them. I have to respect their beliefs. In some cases the "one rifle rifleman" can shoot rings aroumd many of us who maintain a large battery of rifles. However, the bottom line is that the shelf is already filled to overflowing, with the selection of available cartridges and rifles chambered for those cartridges. A rifle manufacturer who decides to take on a "new" cartridge chambering today, takes a huge gamble, no matter how wonderful and superior that cartridge may be. Even in the day when huge strides were being made by the introduction of better, more effective cartridges, the manufacturers faced a hard sell.
Just to name a few cartridges, without claiming their value: 450 Marlin, .280Rem.(rebadged 7mmRem.Express), .260Rem., 6mmRem., and most of the highly touted short magnums. They all hit the market, having their merits trumpeted by overly willing gun magazine journalists. They all enjoyed an early, short success, before retreating into the realm of hard-to-find ammo, that had few or no new rifles chambered for them.
I would have to say that by the 1960s, cartridge design had likely reached it's zenith and since then only very small increments of improvement have been noted.
Certainly, wildcatters and hand loaders will continue to explore any and all avenues toward creating something "new and improved". But to expect any of the new offerings to be widely accepted by the general public, is indeed a long shot.
Steven